[DitV] Light and Dark

[Darren Hill]

About half my players seem to have a problem with the religious overtones in the setting. They don't care about religion, they want to play bad-ass cowboys, dammit!
Now, I think they are being a bit short-sighted, but one of the players expressed an interest in starting up a scifi game and that got me thinking. So... maybe a post-apocalypse game, where mankind is ekeing (eking, eeking? damn, none of them look right) out a living in a mutant-ridden world, where social cohesion is vital among the towns that remain, and some sort of dark power unleashed by the historical armageddon is threatening to corrupt all that remains...

But then it hit me, a real Eureka! moment: Star Wars.
Probably post-Skywalker, where Luke and Leia's descendants (not like that, you pervert!) have multiplied. Maybe an alternate future where Luke sided with the emperor, and Leia fled to the uncharted Galactic West...
Has anyone used DitV to run a Star Wars game?
Can anyone spot any pitfalls I might face, or have any advice? Or, for that matter, ideas I can incorporate?

Looks like conversion wouldn't be hard. The players would be Jedi, and they can define themselves what sort of Force abilities they have just be the things they Raise and See with. (Raise: "I levitate the crates and bonk him on the head with them.")
Have to be careful with Stakes: can't Raise with "these are not the droids you are looking for" if the Stakes are "get the droids past these guards"

Towns would be settlements, and people would be constantly on-guard for encroachment of the Dark Side. Maybe everyone now has some Jedi blood (Leia descendants put it about a bit!) - they don't have the talent, discipline, or training to be Jedi's, but they can hear the call of the Dark Side and call on its power (demons).

Lightsabres and Guns would both be worth d10 fallout, while Fighting and the Force would be d8. (See: "I block his shots with my lightsabre", Raise: "and deflect them back at him!")

Maybe like Ceremony, The Force would have different levels of fallout? I like the D8 standard though - you'd be careful with "These are not the driods you're looking for" if the victim Takes The Blow and has his mind wiped. Of course, that injury might be represented more thematically - the victim loses the ability to be independent, say.)

Having some Uncivilised Other like the Mountain People would be handy - any suggestions? Or maybe they'd be different in each settlement. Here are Jawas, there we find Ewoks, and so on.

[Darren Hill]

I forgot - starfighters and droids can be belongings, as well traits and/or relationships. (hmm. what about Star Fighters v Star Destroyers? Maybe frame the conflict in terms that make sense: "Do we escape the Star Destroyer?" Do We Destroy Its Sensor Array and Escape? That sort of thing.)

Here's a provisional setting:
Luke and the Emperor killed each other, and all the Force the Emperor had contained within himself was released back into the universe. (Or not.)
With the emperor gone, the empire splintered and fell apart - as tyrants siezed control of various chunks, over generations it began to unify once more. So the TA would be replaced by an apparently secular empire.
Hand and Leia and other survivors of the rebellion fled across the Paradox Rift to an uncharted galactic wilderness, a land of promise that they settled. Polygamy might become a fact of life - they needed to get the numbers up in these new colonies after all. (Then again they might have birthing machines...)
As Leia's genes spread out among the populace, the people became sensitive to the Force once more. A few are chosen in every generation to be trained to be Jedi, more and more as time passes.
Here, in this land, the hope of the future is kindled. One day, all the people of the land will be Jedi, and they will return and bring enlightenment to the corrupt empire. If only they could stop these colonies from falling to the Dark Side.

Now, the New Empire has stabilised itself and its expeditionary forces are reaching out. It has established outposts along the Paradox Rift. The New Repoublic isn't strong enough for all out war, so has willingly become a tributary of the empire. Imperial Laws are enforced, taxes are paid. But the Empire doesn't have any time for superstitious mumbo-jumbo - the so-called Jedi and their parlour tricks don't frighten them. So they allow the new Republic its quaint religion...

So basically, the Jedi and their people might be the only people left who have access to the force - which is both a blessing (they might one day be able to bring the empire to its knees) and a curse (they run the risk of falling to the dark side, and one day bringing the empire to its knees...).
Or they might think that - there may be spiritual descendants of the empire out there, too.
But the basic thrust of the campaign will be for the PCs to patrol various colonies, root out signs of corruption, and preserve the status quo. While treading a fine line between following their philosophy and not falling afoul of the secular authorities. Completely unlike your standard DitV game :)

[sirogit]

Bah. I don't get those kids who will play religious characters if the religion doesn't mean anything and is taught by a muppet.

By here's a potentially usefull thread of someone trying Star Wars DitV:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=14311

Personally, I don't see the aesthetic for having Force powers do d8, when they could be based on what you do with them.(Would make sense if it always used Acuity+Will for fighting with the force, though.)

I think Ceremony would model the movies best as "profession of light-side values", it's what the Jedis do when someone's in spiritual peril or when fighting a Sith, the whole "I'm not angry at you dude, you just need less limbs for universal balance, man" thing.

[Darren Hill]

Bah. I don't get those kids who will play religious characters if the religion doesn't mean anything and is taught by a muppet.

Remember, we're Europeans. Religions has no meaning for us. (not entirely serious, but not entirely joking either. Where's the emoticon for that!)

Their objection about the religion in DitV has nothing to do with religion. It's the fact that they want to play cowboys, and their experience of cowboys has nothing to do with religion. Whereas in Dogs, religion is omnipresent (appropriately!).

But in a Jedi game, part of its coolness (apparently!) is the pseudo-religious pseudo-philosophy. And they have no problems with that, because it's part of what a Jedi is.

Thanks for the link to those pages - looks like there's a lot of useful stuff for me to peruse.

[Ul]

If they want to play badass cowboys, and doesn't want to have anything to do with religion. I honestly thinks that there is better game mechanics around to play in. Like deadlands, which happens to be pretty much what you describe they want. It's a pretty neat game, with interesting themes. Stay away from the D20 version though.

I do think that they should give DitV a chance though, it's a really nice game.

[Darren Hill]

I agree with you about DitV - I love its setting/religion. But my group is divided.
Unfortunately, the pure badass cowboy campaign they would prefer isn't one I'm interested in running, thus my ruminations on finding a setting for ditv that they might find more palatable.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

You've just set the weirdometer too high for your group.

And, if I might be so bold, you haven't seen the right Westerns. Go rent High Plains Drifter and The Outlaw Josey Wales. There's nothing supernatural in either (though there's something seriously weird in High Plains Drifter), but the stuff going on is all the same as in a Dogs game.

I have a hard time not seeing Dogs as being the best game available for doing Westerns. I've never played Deadlands, but somehow I doubt it has the mechanical rigor for Western stuff that Dogs has: justice, independence, and society on the brink.

Also, religion was a central part of America in the 19th century. All the original American religions - Christian Science, Mormonism, Spiritism, the Matthians, Jehova's Witnesses, Born-Again Christianity, and all sorts of other unique religions were a tremendous part of the social landscape.

You can't have a Western without it.

Oh, Two Mules for Sister Sarah. That's a good, though not great, Dog movie.

[Ul]

I have a hard time not seeing Dogs as being the best game available for doing Westerns. I've never played Deadlands, but somehow I doubt it has the mechanical rigor for Western stuff that Dogs has: justice, independence, and society on the brink.

ohh, it have.. in a seriously weird way ;) the society in Deadlands are not quite like they would have been back in the westerns, but that makes sense within the game.

But for playing badass cowboys that honestly is pretty far away from helping people, at least intentionally (they quite often do it by accident) you know, the good, the bad and the ugly style, I wouldn't consider DitV very suited. It's build around actually wanting to do the right, in their own (sometimes) slightly harsh way, the right can vary somewhat.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

It's build around actually wanting to do the right, in their own (sometimes) slightly harsh way, the right can vary somewhat.

Some Western styles that would work pretty poorly, given the Town creation rules:

The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
The Wild Bunch


Some that would work well:

Unforgiven
High Plains Drifter
The Outlaw Josey Wales
A Fistful of Dollars
A Few Dollars More


Most of the time, the whole point is that the protag wants to do good because he's taken pity on the townsfolk. Look at any stupid John Wayne movie. Or Tombstone.

All you need to do is add in a little reluctance to get involved to make the characters antiheroes, and voilá! You've got The Brother With No Name!

[Darren Hill]

You've just set the weirdometer too high for your group.

And, if I might be so bold, you haven't seen the right Westerns. Go rent High Plains Drifter and The Outlaw Josey Wales. There's nothing supernatural in either (though there's something seriously weird in High Plains Drifter), but the stuff going on is all the same as in a Dogs game.

I have a hard time not seeing Dogs as being the best game available for doing Westerns.

You're preaching to the choir, here. (Unforgiven and High Plains Drifter are two of my favourite westerns, and I enjoy Josew Wales too. I have no trouble seeing how they would work in this game.)
My players problems have nothing to do with there being demons in the setting. (I recently ran an All Flesh Must Be Eaten Western, and they loved that.) Their problems have everything to do with playing characters who don't drink alcohol, don't go to saloons to gamble and start barfights, and don't seduce women.
Now I've tried to tell them that they can play characters who don't conform to the Faith's mores - be badasses who for whatever reason have chosen to do god's work (even if they don't see it as god's work) - but the fact that they know those things are sins in the setting takes all the fun out of it.
The players who feel this way said it was brought home most strongly in the last session, when there was a saloon in town, and they realised that all the things they suddenly wanted to do, and would do in a different Western game, were actually wrong in this one.
[]That[/i] is the core problem.
We're going to try dumping most of the current characters and make characters who are more out-and-out badasses, who spit on many of the faith's tenets, but still want to do the right thing. But it might not work, thus the Jedi Master Plan, I mean, backup plan.

Also, religion was a central part of America in the 19th century. All the original American religions - Christian Science, Mormonism, Spiritism, the Matthians, Jehova's Witnesses, Born-Again Christianity, and all sorts of other unique religions were a tremendous part of the social landscape.

You can't have a Western without it.

Course you can. How many films does those things actually come up in? Yes, they inform the background, but as tangible elements of the setting, they just aren't there (we're talking movie westerns here).
You could argue that Western's are the way they are because of those things, and I'd agree and respond by saying that Western society (that is, Modern European & Amercican rather than the other Western) is the way it is because of religion, too, and it's entirely possibly to play a game in the setting and never directly engage with that fact in play.

Anyway, this thread isn't about finding arguments to convert the players to our point of view. As I said above, I agreee with you.

[pete_darby]

Hang on, tough cowboys, no supernatural / religious stuff necessary?

Deadlands, pah!

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

but the fact that they know those things are sins in the setting takes all the fun out of it. ...
The players who feel this way said it was brought home most strongly in the last session, when there was a saloon in town, and they realised that all the things they suddenly wanted to do, and would do in a different Western game, were actually wrong in this one.

Did you just say that your players won't play bad guys unless it's OK with the other characters?

What the hell is the point of a bad guy if everything around him is OK?

...

My favorite Dog is Frank Redboots. Frank's killed a lot of men. A lot. He fought on both sides in the War Between Territories, he's stolen horses, and shot and raped women (in whatever order presented itself). He killed a man for his boots once, and the blood stained those boots, and they're red to this day.

One day, he found himself face down in a pool of blood that was mostly his, with the King of Life bitchin' him out, saying he'd done a lot of bad, and that the King hated him, and that Frank was going to have to stand back up and do good to outweigh all the bad he'd done. The King told him that he was a hateful abomination and that Frank was a creature even the King couldn't love. So he stood Frank back up and sent him to Bridal Falls.

Frank hasn't stopped whorin' an' swearin' - it don't hurt no one - but anyone stands in between him and someone rackin' up sins, Frank figures he's doin' 'em a favor puttin' them down, else they'll get as bad as he is one day. Then he deals with th' sinner.

Frank's lookin' for the sinner that can shoot him down good. Cuz when he's down in the dird and he's up to be judged by the King, he's goin' in with guns blazin'.

[Darren Hill]

Did you just say that your players won't play bad guys unless it's OK with the other characters?

No. As I understand it, they only want to play bad guys if it's fun. Their idea of fun might be different from yours and mine.

Darren

[lumpley]

With Pete, totally Dust Devils. Like, I can't believe we're having a conversation about what game to use to play a nonreligious western.

-Vincent

[Darren Hill]

Dust Devils: I have it but haven't played it yet. I'm a bit put off by the poker-hand approach - I expect it to be a bit clunky in play, especially for those of us (like me) who don't play many card games.
Since it's so strongly recommended, I'll have to try to set aside time for a one-off to see if that fear's justified.