Technology + Magic, Lots of Abilities/Skills

[Wednesday]

I want to do some work on a setting idea I cooked up, and I also want to integrate another idea I've had for some time now.
The system I'll be using is probably Mythic (a bit like Fudge if you're not familiar).  First the setting idea:
The setting idea I have is Magic + Technology, only I don't want to do the usual RIFTS/Shadowrun thing with near future technology and magic (IE, space marines vs Gandalf) but rather have the sort of technology you see in EE Smith's Lensman novels, some of Vance's Sci-Fi.  Real technology incarnate that is inferred from Arthur C. Clarke's law that "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."
The setting is going to be relatively space opera, and thus will have (super)humans.  For simple fact that I have no idea how to emulate the actions of carbon nanomachine supercomputers I'll assume some theoretical barrier to processing power and a limitation on the benefits of manual mechanization, while at the same time assuming humans are vastly physically enhanced in ways which may leave them with little relation to modern humans.
The primary difference between tech and magic, aside from the feel/mechanics of them, is that technology can be described in mathematics whereas magic can only be described in abstract logic.  Sort of like Carl Popper Vs. Hegel.  This difference is known in the Universe, and is a source of mutual contention between scientific agencies and thumaturgical researchers.
The technology I imagine is as follows: FTL drives, anti-matter bombs, gamma laser guns, portable force fields, psionic powers, cybernetics.  Cybernetics restrict the possible power of psionics (sort of like Shadowrun and Mana) but not in a classical way where it's like +2 to strength, oops no magic for you.  Rather I want cybernetics and psionics to be two distinct paths of power.  I'm imagining cyborgs to be a like Mentats (from Dune) plus medium-power 'killer cyborg' abilities.  Cyborgs will probably also develop strange personalities because of the speed and different symbolic logic their brains begin to use as they convert.  Psionists are like the Grey Lensmen or D&D psionicists, with different branches of proficiency.  Also look at the WEG 'Space Opera' setting.  Since I am not going to publish any of this I fully intend to rip these things off in play, Mythic makes converting material from any RPG a piece of cake.  Once I am satisfied with what I've got I'll put my own material with recommendations on where to get ideas (IE, the sources I'll be using in my own play) online somewhere.
Now on to magic.  I am a bit unclear of what I want magic to be like, but if you've read the technology I've included you'll know it has to be potent to compete.  Like cybernetics vs. psionics I want magic to be a third distinct path with it's own flavour, instead of the Palladium style where psychic powers are just spells with different ability requirements.  I am unsure of exactly how to work these 'flavours' and would appreciate suggestions and so forth.  I have an idea that I want magic to be a bit like it is in Conan (d20) or Call of Cthulhu, but less demony and damning and more powerful.  Also something like those little imps the Archmages use in Dying Earth by Vance appeals to me.

Now onto my system idea:
The system I am using is very simple (if you're not familiar with Mythic, it's mechanics are a bit like FUDGE meets BRP Call of Cthulhu) but allows a fair bit of 'realism', although it isn't much as far as simulationism goes.  One thing I want to do (I get this idea partially from the Space Opera rpg) is have lots and lots of attributes and abilities.  Like ten or twelve primary attributes (agility, reflex, dexterity etc) although I admit being unsure of exactly which attributes I want represented.  I also want fairly specific skills, with some broader allounce for professions but still rather specialized professions.  For example, no one would be an 'engineer'.  Someone would be a plasma coupling engineer.  A more generalist engineer, say a Star Drive engineer, would probably be an overseer with a number of specialists under him.  He might be able to deal with some specific engine problems himself but not as well as his staff and any small details would probably escape him.  Now elaborating and narrowing skills is fairly easy, as long as they are limited enough they'll all be equitable and if someone doesn't think BioStuff Chemist is a useful skill then they can just not have it.  On the other hand, primary attributes are harder because they have to be relatively equally useful.  I would appreciate suggestions on attributes (preferably at least nine) which could all come into play enough to balance out one another.

To help with the task of thinking of equally useful attributes, should any of you feel like looking into it, I'll give you an idea of the play style.  It is as I said Space Opera style so is action-oriented but, like pulps and classic space opera, it places value on character strengths and intellect just as much as kicking down doors.  I recall one time that Doc Savage jumped into a burning building to escape with some chemicals and then performed an emergency brain surgery in the bushes outside.  That's the sort of gameply I have in mind, where just about any ability within reason can come in handy in any situation if the players are clever enough to think of how.
Also, as combat goes, I intend to be fairly realistic (as the old pulps were) as to what effect weapons and exposure to space and such have on human beings; I intend to encourage evading anti-electron rays instead of puffing one's chest out and declaring, "It's only a d4!"

Addendum: I also do not intend my science to be arbitrary pseudo-science, IE Star Wars or X-Men.  What I am aiming for is internally consistent and fairly logical, if strange, science that you get in EE Smith, Vance, Heinlein and the like.  When that fails I at least intend to keep up a veneer of quasi-mathematical technobabble like Star Trek.  This is important as science has to be just as wonderful but disctinct from magic.

[Warren]

I think the usual questions around here go:

"What do the characters do?"

AND

"What do the players do?"

Ideally, in a couple of sentences or less. Ignore the system details for now, and to a certain extent the colour. What happens in the game, and around the table when people play this?

[Wednesday]

What do the characters do:
Engage in action-adventure plots, with higher than normal intellectual levels compared to modern action adventure.  I refer you to Doc Savage, to some extent Conan and ADVENTURE! by White Wolf.

What do the players do:
Not sure I understand this.  Talk to one another about the story and occasionally roll dice?

[Warren]

Hmmm. From the answers you gave, it seems like you are creating quite an 'illusionist' game. i.e. the GM creates an action-adventure "plot" or "story", and the good little players "talk about" it. In any case, what I meant by "what do the players do" is this:

What style of play or what goals are you setting for the players in your game? What are the player objectives? What's the game about - for them.

Is it simply exploring what it would be like to be two-fisted pulp heroes in your game world? Is about making the dramatic choice between 'saving the world' or 'saving my girl' (i.e. what is worth sacrificing to save the world?) Is it about the satisfaction of tactically out-thinking the machinations of the bad guy? The better focused your game, the more fun it will be (IMHO).

Remember the world and the characters don't really exist. It's the real people sat around the table who you should focus on. What do they do when they are playing your game? Why would they find it fun?

This is much better illustrated by the evolution of the game concept presented in this excellent thread. Here's a quote that I found pertinent:

"In D&D players create characters to kill monsters and take their stuff."

Over-simple? Maybe, but that's the heart of it, isn't it? So, what's the concept of your game? What will the players do? Be as specific as you can. "Players create characters that go on adventures and explore stuff." is kinda wide-open, over-done, and well... weak. It doesn't tell us anything about a game. But boy do new people here at the Forge ever say that a lot. :D

So, tell us what you want your game to be about. Be specific. And don't sweat "original" or "unique". Those aren't prerequisites to creating a game.

Also, another question: What is unique about your game? Why would I use it instead of, say, ADVENTURE! or GURPS or whatever?

And what I mean by 'unique' in this instance is well expounded in the same thread:

"If you're trying to create a new game we're assuming that you haven't found a game that does what you want to do yet otherwise you'd be playing that game. So, by asking what makes your game unique, we're trying to find out just what you're getting at with this new design."

Despite the tone (sorry about that), I hope this is of some help.

Warren

[Andrew Cooper]

Let me give an nod to Warren and then expound a little bit on the "What do Players do?" question.  It's a vastly important question but hard for a new designer like you or me to sometimes wrap our heads around.  We're so focused on the in-game setting and the nifty mechanics that we forget to really consider what the players are actually doing during a game session.  Let's take D&D as an example.  In a standard game of D&D (as described in the PHB and the DMG) what are the players doing?

1.)  Moving miniatures around a tactical map board.
2.)  Thinking and talking about ways to maximize their character's efficiency.
3.)  Giving kudos to players who demonstrate superior tactics and guts.
4.)  Cooperating against the DM who is providing challenges for the players.

This isn't an exhaustive list but it is a very different list from Universalis, Capes, Sorcerer, or many other games.  In order to provide focus for your game you need to address these types of issues.  This type of list lets you look at specific mechanics and say, "Is this supporting what I visualize the players doing in my game?"

[Wednesday]

The basic idea of how play goes comes from how Mythic plays with it's random plot changes (and how pulp stories tend to go).  Basically the PCs are in some initially exciting sort of situation, just what will be up to them and the GM (if any); depending on the sorts of PCs they construct it could be escaping a prison on some planet or hunting down space pirates.  The form play will tend to take is defeating 'bad guys' (or enemies) as well as resolving any personal interests the characters may have (like expanding his corporation, or getting a new sweet starship).
Gaining wealth and objects of power would be of course important (unless the PCs are some sort of monks or something) but not as key a feature as in D&D, since any schmuck can pick up an anti-matter shotgun if he wants to pay the money.
Aside from the pulp/classic science fiction things which will effect the way the game can be played I don't see it as being constricted to any particular plot devices; in fact I'm thinking of it in narratavist terms I suppose: The point is for the characters (and possible GM) to come up with some interesting story which involves their PCs.  Whether or not they blow up the Golden Hoarde along the way is up to them, but since violence (and other forms of cleverness) will be so effective in the game it wouldn't be surprising if they decided to knock the gaurd out instead of trying to get the opponent's lease rejected.

The GM (if any) is not viewed as an 'enemy' in this sort of game, in fact he may be responsible for some Deus Ex Machina to protect the players; something not uncommon in Star Wars.

Now, why it Vs. GURPS or what have you?
Well, personally I think the system fits it better (even better than Adventure! or Space Opera) but other than that it's mainly a design of an interesting world with an interesting balance of powers; so what would cause people to play it would be the world information and the fact that I'll have worked out a way for the magic/psionics/cybernetics to compete with eachother which may interest them.

[Warren]

OK - the highlighted points I'm getting out of that are. This is me trying to understand what's going on, so feel free to correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

Before play the players create a pulp-hero character with at least some personal complications (the 'some interesting story which involves their PCs'). They, along with the GM, create a shared adversary (the defeating 'bad guys' part) and an initial Kicker (like Sorcerer - which is the "initially exciting sort of situation") to get them into play.

Once in play, the characters try to overcome the adversary they generated, who I assume will be played by the GM, and deal with their personal complications too (the "like expanding his corporation, or getting a new sweet starship" part), with a protective hand of the GM watching over the actions of the players (the "Deus Ex Machina" bit). Also, there will be several "random plot changes" thrown in for good measure. Finally, reading between the lines, I presume that you want some mechanism to ensure the players to keep 'in genre' and keep the pulpy atmosphere going, be it violent actions being less effective or whatever.

OK - let me know if I'm on the mark, and also, what kind of feedback do you want out of the forum?

Thanks,


Warren