[PlotPoint] - Game Design/Introduction

[b00jum]

before I give a write up of a kid-friendly rpg that I designed, I thought I'd give some general design goals and ask if anyone knows of a system that fits that goal or can suggest (create) such a system.
   
This would probably be better done before reading my next post 8)
   
Goal (System): kid-friendly rpg system that is one step removed from free form make-believe. It would be a simple introduction to roleplaying. The mechanics would be rules lite and emphasis would be on flow and story over realism. The system would reward players for shared storytelling.
   
Goal (Genre): As most systems are better at particular types of stories, my emphasis is on creating a fairy tale / story world. Combat is not neccessarily the best way to solve a problem and there are numerous stories about young characters overcoming great adversity.
   
Thanks a Million Quatloos in advance!
   
Glen Gyldersleve - snark@tulgey.org - www.tulgey.org
   
  Es brillig war. Die schlichte Toven
  Wirrten und wimmelten in Waben;
  Und aller-mumsige Burggoven
  Die mohmen Rath' ausgraben.

[b00jum]

PlotPoint revision August 6th, 2005 (version 0.2)

This and previous versions of the system can be found at:

http://www.tulgey.org/twiki/bin/view/Gaming/PlotPoint

I've been working on a system that is proving to be kid friendly.  The basic impetus was to try to create a system that was only slightly removed from make believe. 

I believe the roots of roleplaying are in the world of free form make-believe.  Its one of my personal/research interests. 
http://www.tulgey.org/twiki/bin/view/Gaming/MakeBelieve

Goal (System): kid-friendly rpg system that is one step removed from free form make-believe.  It would be a simple introduction to roleplaying.   The mechanics would be rules lite and emphasis would be on flow and story over realism.   The system would reward players for shared storytelling.

Goal (Genre):  As most systems are better at particular types of stories, my emphasis is on creating a fairy tale / story world.  Combat is not neccessarily the best way to solve a problem and there are numerous stories about young characters overcoming adversity.

The challenge I was having is that I have a heavy background/bias towards traditional rpgs (AD&D style) that comes from a basis in miniatures gaming.  This was also helped along by the fact that I have a sizable collection of Playmobil miniatures (Knights, Pirates and Fantasy) and I use these in my games.  Adding to this bias is that I simultaneously created a system for simplified miniatures combat using said Playmobil 8)
It describes the basic mechanics (working title Dx), which is just a simplified skill/dice system (6 skill levels: No Skill, Novice, Journeyman, Master, Grand Master, Hero) which correspond to D2, D4, D6, D8, D10 and D12.  All roles are dice roll-offs.  IOW: its a chartless system.  You basically roll off against a difficulty die (odds of success have been calculated off the PlotPoint page) if its a skill role (e.g.. no contested challenge with another person). You roll against some else's die level when its a contested challenge.

And thats half the mechanics of the game.

At first I was trying to tie in Health and Damage and all that RPG "stuff".  I hit a wall and was just not satisfied with how the design goal (slightly structured make believe, with a focus on story and flow) was conflicting with all the traditional RPG elements, which slowed things up to do bookkeeping.  The real problem with rules in most rpgs is that there are successive levels of "realism" that are trying to be achieved.  This causes more and more layers of rules to be applied. 

I already had a mechanic called PlotPoint that affected play.  The original (and current as of 8/6/05) written sketch uses them sparingly.  In real world play I found that it was better to modify them to substitute for all other mechanics.

PlotPoints as I use them now. 

PlotPoints are currency for shared storytelling.   They are the most basic reward system in the game.  Each player get a number of PlotPoints at the start of the game (during creation).  As play proceeds, players can spend PlotPoints to influence rolls and suggest game/plot elements.  The exchange is an arbitrary system set by the GM.  It creates an economy that is continually renegotiated according to the dictates of plot and circumstance.

Example (from real world play).  The players need to get ahold of a fair quantity of Mint to give to the cyclops (He really likes Mint Tea).  They can't go back to where they know there is some, so they have to forge ahead into the unknown.  They come down from a mountain and see below them a swamp.  One of the players takes his accumulated PlotPoints (4) and "borrows" a few from other players (totaling 6) and while handing them to me says "We look out into the swamp and try to find some Swamp Mint!".  Its a fair number of the PlotPoints out on the table and.. influencing the setting change is the fact that I have an encounter available to meet the swamp witch and had no hard/set way this would happen.  Thus:  "You spy in the mist shrouded distance an island in the swamp covered in what looks like swamp mint".

Skill success is obvious (better the difference in die roll, the better the success), but what about damage?

This is the fun part.  The players get to describe their own damage.  Player rolls a 2, the ogre rolls a 6.  The player then describes what happens to them.  The more vivid/descriptive, the more PlotPoints they earn (In my current economy about 1-3, normally 1).  Its easy to earn no PlotPoints with a lackluster or little description.

Other ways to earn PlotPoints:

Moving the plot along (finding/talking to a significant person), Being Descriptive in action, Generally good roleplaying.

Limits to PlotPoints.

As a GM I put a high price on certain changes to the world, most especially if it conflicts with a solid/good plot thread.  I'm open to new plot hooks/suggestions especially if it develops or extends something existing.   The real limit is things that break genre.  Ex: Can we have the Aliens rescue us?  No - there are not enough PlotPoints in the game to do that.

What do you use to represent PlotPoints?

Since tangibility gives a better feel than marking down ephemeral points, I use glass beads, the kind you find in quantity at a flower shop (to hold flowers in vases).  They are usually flat on one side.  You can also find them at RPG/Hobby shops as tokens for MtG, but its a much more expensive way to buy them.

So - about those kids?

I'm currently play-testing the game with a couple and their 9 year old son.  The most significant thing I've noticed is that the players got into the groove really quickly and are producing wonderful roleplaying.  They aren't afraid of  character "losing" as it generally will earn them a few Points if they play it right.  What was really nice is that while the kid had not role played before, the immediate reward system worked well in getting him to get the roleplaying side of it, rather than the "game" (kill and get stuff) of it.

I guess one could say that it makes more of a game of roleplaying rather than a game of mechanics.

Ok, how about character development?

Well, this system works well for a fairy tale setting.   In my world, characters have a certain amount of hidden potential/aptitude (often times unknown to both the player and GM until circumstance reveals it).  As play progresses they may become better in a certain skill or develop new abilities.  Most often this happens as players use a skill repeatedly.    While its not "realistic" that a character would go from D4 to D6 (Novice to Journeyman) in a relatively short period of time, in a Fairy Tale setting a character may find they discover an aptitude that is better than the norm.

What I found works well is that these rewards can be given during play and not just at the end of a session.

But what about XYZ system that seems so close?

I am aware of a number of other systems that use similar mechanics (Universalis comes to mind).  While I'm peripherally aware of these systems (me use google good), I've yet to explore them.

Yes, but what's next?  How would this system be more fleshed out in order to "publish" it for other people to play?

I'm not really sure what's next.  I'll continue to play test the game to get a feel for what may or may not be needed.  I like the idea of it being a rules lite/easy play system.   I recognize that the PlotPoint economy is fairly idiosyncratic and could probably use more guidelines.

I also like the idea of exploring more free form plot/world structures where the players may give more input to settings/characters/plots and so on.  The current structure is still fairly traditional GM and Player oriented.  The players in this case may negotiate with the GM to give input, but the GM is very much in control of the economy.  This seems the right way to do it when there is a fairly defined world and a reasonable web of plot hooks available. 

Also - given my Genre goal, I can see a new mine of information I've overlooked in all the Fairy Tale research I've done over the past 10 years (sometimes the brick and brain have to meet at higher speeds to get the clue).  I think there's a great deal of system to be discovered in Fairy Tales.

Glen Gyldersleve  - snark@tulgey.org - www.tulgey.org

         Es brillig war.  Die schlichte Toven
         Wirrten und wimmelten in Waben;
         Und aller-mumsige Burggoven
         Die mohmen Rath' ausgraben.       

[Nogusielkt]

PlotPoints are currency for shared storytelling.   They are the most basic reward system in the game.  Each player get a number of PlotPoints at the start of the game (during creation).  As play proceeds, players can spend PlotPoints to influence rolls and suggest game/plot elements.  The exchange is an arbitrary system set by the GM.  It creates an economy that is continually renegotiated according to the dictates of plot and circumstance.

Example (from real world play).  The players need to get ahold of a fair quantity of Mint to give to the cyclops (He really likes Mint Tea).  They can't go back to where they know there is some, so they have to forge ahead into the unknown.  They come down from a mountain and see below them a swamp.  One of the players takes his accumulated PlotPoints (4) and "borrows" a few from other players (totaling 6) and while handing them to me says "We look out into the swamp and try to find some Swamp Mint!".  Its a fair number of the PlotPoints out on the table and.. influencing the setting change is the fact that I have an encounter available to meet the swamp witch and had no hard/set way this would happen.  Thus:  "You spy in the mist shrouded distance an island in the swamp covered in what looks like swamp mint".

Skill success is obvious (better the difference in die roll, the better the success), but what about damage?

This is the fun part.  The players get to describe their own damage.  Player rolls a 2, the ogre rolls a 6.  The player then describes what happens to them.  The more vivid/descriptive, the more PlotPoints they earn (In my current economy about 1-3, normally 1).  Its easy to earn no PlotPoints with a lackluster or little description.

Other ways to earn PlotPoints:

Moving the plot along (finding/talking to a significant person), Being Descriptive in action, Generally good roleplaying.

Limits to PlotPoints.

As a GM I put a high price on certain changes to the world, most especially if it conflicts with a solid/good plot thread.  I'm open to new plot hooks/suggestions especially if it develops or extends something existing.   The real limit is things that break genre.  Ex: Can we have the Aliens rescue us?  No - there are not enough PlotPoints in the game to do that.

The whole plotpoints thing escapes me.  I understand how it can be entertaining to some people, but it seems far too arbitrary to me.  In your example, the GM set a goal of needing mints.  Then the GM set the next area as naturally mintless.  I think that screams "I'm looking for a plot point bribe".  It just seems like a cycle to me.  Players go along with plot, get rewarded with plotpoints, players spend plotpoints to advance the story the GM wanted them to advance in anyhow, repeat.  So, how's the "borrowing" work?  I assume that all players must be in agreement, but I've been wrong before.  As for players describing their damage... it's great to start, but eventually becomes VERY old.  I worked as a moderator for an online message board rpg.  The whole game is based upon roleplaying and describing all your actions, but it wears on the person trying to decide if it was good or not and may wear on relationships if someone thought it was cool, but the GM did not.  Some people won't have a problem, but one of the goals of my game was to avoid social conflicts like that.  Sorry for the negative response, just wanted to be honest.  Here's to hoping your kid game teaches kids the proper way to play games.

[b00jum]

The whole plotpoints thing escapes me. I understand how it can be entertaining to some people, but it seems far too arbitrary to me. In your example, the GM set a goal of needing mints. Then the GM set the next area as naturally mintless. I think that screams "I'm looking for a plot point bribe". It just seems like a cycle to me. Players go along with plot, get rewarded with plotpoints, players spend plotpoints to advance the story the GM wanted them to advance in anyhow, repeat. So, how's the "borrowing" work? I assume that all players must be in agreement, but I've been wrong before. As for players describing their damage... it's great to start, but eventually becomes VERY old. I worked as a moderator for an online message board rpg. The whole game is based upon roleplaying and describing all your actions, but it wears on the person trying to decide if it was good or not and may wear on relationships if someone thought it was cool, but the GM did not. Some people won't have a problem, but one of the goals of my game was to avoid social conflicts like that. Sorry for the negative response, just wanted to be honest. Here's to hoping your kid game teaches kids the proper way to play games.

I'll hazard a guess that PlotPoint mechanics will escape an entire segment of the gaming community 8)  PlotPoints have been around in various forms for a number of years.  Mind you, I'm not trying to justify it *just* cause it been around. 

A list of Hero Point systems (mechanic similar or equivalent to PlotPoints)
http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/systemdesign/heropoints.html

My write up:
http://www.tulgey.org/twiki/bin/view/Gaming/PlotPointSimilar

This last list is from some of the great feedback I've been getting.

Arbitrary:
  I agree that the system is arbitary and thus open for failure from a GM going by "whim" and thus the players never get a sense of an actual exchange system.  The design challenge here is to balance a free form mechanic with a set of rules that don't conflict with the design goals of simplicity and playabilty by younger gamers (age 7+). 

Bribery Cycle:
  yeah, I havn't thought about it as a bribery cycle, but I guess you could look at it as an exchange system for shared storytelling or a means of bribing the players and getting bribed in turn (or both at the same time).  I'll hazard a guess that its a matter of both perspective and how its played.  Its a good critique and a phenomen I'll watch for.

Borrowing:
  Since the rules are so light, I didn't have a mechanic for players borrowing PlotPoints.  The player asked for some of the other players points and they gave them to him.  It felt perfectly natural to me, so long as the other players were in agreement.  I'm not to the point of having a "mechanic" to deal with borrowing, but I can see the possibility of abuse.  Again, another thing to watch for as I play test.

Players describing damage:
  yeah, I agree that its needs to be moderated.  Currently my plan is to moderate it as the GM.  The real goal is to have a non "point" based system that reflects damage that is more descriptive/narrative than linear/mechanical.

Social Problems in arbitrary exchange.
  Well, so far its not a problem, but then we've only  been playing with the latest incarnation of the rules for a few sessions.  I can forsee that this is the reason that the Hero Point / other Plot Point mechanics have more guidelines to them. 

Thanks again Nogusielkt for the feedback.  I'm not offended by the negative tone as I posted this to get feedback.  I aware that much of the games flavor and playability cannot be conveyed by a rules write up, but thats the challenge - to communicate by words alone 8)  Also, as its very much of a beta system, I'm trying it out to see where it may need to go next.

Suggestions of intersting mechanics that adhere to the original design goals are very welcome 8)

[Adam Dray]

Welcome to the Forge, Glen!

It sounds like you're having some really rewarding play sessions. Sessions that mix young children in with adults can be very challenging, since the kids will often defer to what they think the adults want them to do. The big challenge is designing a system that gives kids the backing and the confidence to contribute stuff of their own imagination and to keep the adults from shepherding them around!

Since you've playtested a couple games, it sounds like, maybe you could post a bit about your games in Actual Play. I'd love to see how the game went, what the players did, and how the game design influenced their actions.  I'd like to see an example of Plot Points in action.

You're right that metagame currency has been around for a while. I think you're wrong that you don't need some kind of system to govern it. At the very least, your rules should provide strong guidelines to the GM and players about appropriate use of Plot Points. Consider rules about internal consistency, what is too much, when to be stingy, and so on. It's a game geared towards children, you say, and thus it needs to be simple. Yes, but 1) you are playtesting with adult players as well and 2) you, the GM, are an adult and have to make all kinds of adult choices about how to handle children players. That calls for some hefty GM advice, I'd think. It may come naturally to you but you may be better at such things than other GMs. =)

I think the borrowing aspect is cool. Don't squish it. Cooperation and teamwork and trust are great skills to teach to kids.

As for damage, why not just give some very general guidelines. Like describe some ranges that produce "a teeny bit of damage," "a little damage," "a lot of damage," and "a huge amount of damage." Then let everyone figure out what that means during the game. Some rules to help players understand consequences will help.

I don't have time to read the game link right now, but I'll check it out later and see if I can give some more informed feedback!

[Andrew Cooper]

Glen,

What age of kids are you targeting with this system?  I know you mentioned a 9 year old in your post.  Are we talking 5 year old kids or 9 - 12 year olds?  It's a pretty big difference.

I second Adam's advice.  Plot Point usage should be more defined.  That doesn't mean make it complicated.  That just means define what they can/can't do.  If you haven't looked at Universalis, I suggest giving it a look.  Also, consider Pace.  Both are games that use points like that.  Universalis uses them in a very similar way to your game.  Tokens in Universalis are spent to add things/events to the SiS (Imaginary World, if you like).  Simplifying a system like that would be something like what you are looking for, I think.

[Ben Lehman]

Hi!

That's a cool set of goals and, honestly, a pretty cool system to go along with it.  How do you decide what die the players get to roll for what actions?  How do you decide what die the GM gets to throw?

In terms of making the plot point system a little less arbitrary, I would consider taking the giving / interpretating of plot points out of the sole hands of the GM.  The game that I'm thinking of that already does something similar but by no means identical is PrimeTime Adventures, where any player but the GM can give "points" to fellow players.  It's worth considering.

It is also worth considering having plot points for scene framing (so the player says "we come to a forest and..." rather than the GM) and a more rigorous system for costs (trivially solves a present problem = 5 points.  Adds a complication = -2 points, etc.)

Food for thought.

yrs--
--Ben

[Josh Roby]

One very big question you should ask yourself is if the GM is ever going to be a kid, or will always be a moderating adult.  From what you've posted thus far, you make many references to "the story" and "the plot" but have not specified how that story/plot is determined.  It sounds like it's created and maintained by the GM, and whether or not something "forwards" the plot is solely up to GM discretion.  This can work with a moderating adult and (mostly) child players, who will accept adult fiat -- whether or not that will fly with all adult players or with child players and a child GM is a lot less certain.

As for damage: what about allowing the players to describe damage and then decide on a restriction that the damage causes?  "I got hit in the leg, I can't run," or "My shoulder was chomped on, my right arm can't do anything complicated."

[GaryTP]

Hey Glen.

Prince Valiant is a great RPG to look at in terms of presenting a game in an easily-to-learn format, chock full of solid gameplay examples. A very good kid-friendly system.

You also might check out something called Whimsy cards in terms of a simple storytelling mechanic. (A deck of cards with simple plot devices on them.) Here's a link for an explanation.

http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/systemdesign/cards/whimsycards.html

Gary