The last lap? Final Chapter?

[sandmanx]

Information about game (So you know what I'm talking about.)
Title: Grinder
Genre:   Sci Fi Miniature Wargame Rules
approx: 60 pages
color cover, b/w artwork inside
market:   pdf and perfect bound copies
Grinder is a whole new approach to wargaming with miniatures.  Based on real principles of war and command, the Grinder system lets you be a general.  Your men will try to follow orders to the best of their ability, and they will react accordingly to new situations on the battlefield.

I feel like an orphan as a wargamer (I do rpg too), but damn, you guys at the Forge rock.  I have been writing a wargame that will lead to a RPG game supplement in the future.  I hope wargame is not a bad word here.  The wargamers on the internet really don't have their crap together like the Forge does.  Lurking here for a few months has been a treasure.  Thanks for some good threads.

I have playtested the hell out of the rules system.  Every time I re-read the rules I add, subtract, or stare at it thinking of better ways to explain something.  Now I'm thinking I'm just changing the rules not making them better, just different.  I am on the last chapter of writing history (of the future, hmmm.)  Here are a few questions I have:

How many times do you proofread your material?
When do you say that's it?
When does playtesting end?
If you do find some mistakes down the road, how do you handle that?
What do you do when you know you have to work on it more, but your just sick of looking at it? (The ahh...How can I be mad at you syndrome.)  Trick question.  Don't answer, but I feel like this sometimes.
How do you handle constructive criticism and blatant attacks on the rules?
Finally, how do you get over being scared to put it out there? (Even though it's the best friggin miniature rules system in the universe. jk)

Sorry for the ramble,
Sandman

[Sifolis]

i love wargames....

and...the best i could answer would be

How many times do you proofread your material?/ Hundreds n hundreds of times. but never do it yourself...you need other eyes to look at it..you will never see all of your own mistakes...

When do you say that's it?/ NEVER BWAH HA HA! or until i find its perfect...

When does playtesting end?/ the day its so perfect that u call it.."playing it" not "play tesing it" i find it ridiculus how many people play test a game for a few weeks and then think its done....play test the shit out of it, and dont just test with one group...and test with outsiders, not just your friends....

If you do find some mistakes down the road, how do you handle that?/ change it..play testing will fix that...if your looking to publish or print the game, then a long play-testing is prolly the best thing to do. finding mistakes will be a major task...one you cant do yourself...you need others to look it over...others who have a passion for the type of game your making.

What do you do when you know you have to work on it more, but your just sick of looking at it? (The ahh...How can I be mad at you syndrome.)  Trick question.  Don't answer, but I feel like this sometimes./ put it down...work on sumthing new for a bit...re-kindle the magic by ignoring your baby for a month or two...oh wait..you said dont answer.

How do you handle constructive criticism and blatant attacks on the rules?/ swallow them, see why they said it..and fix it...the people judging your rules prolly are friends, or people you know..if this thing is going to find its way into stranger's homes n hands, then you better have it perfect...cus if friends will attack it, strangers will kill it.

Finally, how do you get over being scared to put it out there? (Even though it's the best friggin miniature rules system in the universe. jk)/ love your game, strive to make it great, and then let your child walk....dont fear your game's new freedom, let it fly.


just my thoughts.....ps, cant wait to play....and what minitures will i need? i always wanted to make a miniture's game, but i lack the ability to mass-produce the peices...i can sculpt (damn well actually) but i cant mass-produce the lil buggers.

[sandmanx]

Thanks for the reply Sif

Proofreading - A week ago I sent the rules out to a group of friends who I felt are dead honest.  They are now proofreading for me, and have come up with some great suggestions already.
I think the next step I will take will be a professional editor/proofreader.

Playtest - We have been playtesting the basic ruleset for a little over a year. (wargame time = once every two weeks on average)  This has been with friends and my old wargame group.  The next step here will be finding the outsiders.  What would you suggest?  There is a hobby store and a couple gaming groups nearby that are supportive to the hobby.  My friend says we should set up demo day at the hobby store.  Guess he is right.

Criticism - The answer here will be to let strangers see it before I publish it.  Looks like demo day is coming at the hobby store.

what minitures will i need?
Any.  The game is designed to use any sci fi minis.  We use 28mm GW for most pieces.  Grinder will have army lists within the core rules for players to start playing right away.  The Grinder universe has the following armies in it: Mega-Corporate Marines, United Federation Forces, Orc Warlords, and The Grays.  In time, a supplement will be done letting players make up their own army lists using whatever figs they want to use and includes several new army lists including Elvaren, The Core, Swarm, Saurian, Conferderates, and Necros to name a few.

i lack the ability to mass-produce the peices...
The equipment for this process is very expensive, large, and smelly.  You have to like working with molten lead, molten pewter, and silicon rubber products.  I played with the idea, but would rather have someone else cast if I got into this part of the process.

i can sculpt (damn well actually) but i cant mass-produce the lil buggers.
Sculpting is in high demand for games right now.  With the new figure companies out there the quality is very high.  Rackham, Games Workshop, Reaper, Mammoth, etc... are all doing some fine work.  Most miniature designers are now diversifying their product lines by making games with their miniatures.  This is one of my gripes.  I like some of the figures, but don't like the games sold with them.

[komradebob]

I feel your pain with regard to being unable to produce miniatures for a miniatures game system.

If I may ask, how is this affecting your design? For example, I noted that you have army lists. If you have no way to control/provide the minis used, are you sure that themed army lists are the best way to approach this?

[sandmanx]

I feel your pain with regard to being unable to produce miniatures for a miniatures game system.
With the initial outlay of expenses for such a task, it makes it untouchable for me right now.  Not to mention finding the talent to sculpt the figures in the first place.

If I may ask, how is this affecting your design? For example, I noted that you have army lists. If you have no way to control/provide the minis used, are you sure that themed army lists are the best way to approach this?
Like all of us, we turn what could be a weakness into a strength.  By taking a look at what figures are out on the market, I summarized them into basic army categories.  Taking these summarized forces, I made some generic themed armies with them.  Further along, I want to include the formulas for making these armies so players can do it themselves.  I thought it would be easy to make armies, but it seems harder to make balanced armies than the rules themselves.
So in the end, you can choose whatever figures your heart desires.  I will advise that players get together in their own groups and find what is acceptable for them.  If your group is okay with it, then run with it.  What other suggestions would you have?  Kind of a figureless figures game, rofl !!!

-Sandman

[komradebob]

What other suggestions would you have?

I'd make it a skirmish/Warband game based on space pirates. Rather than the factionalized style of play you see in games like WH40k with its themed armies, I'd take a more Star Wars approach, allowing players to build warbands filled with unique individuals of many types. The Space Pirate thing is esssentially an excuse for why all these different races and technology levels are in the same warband.

The advantage is that you then play into the diversity of really nice figures that are currently on the market. Personally, I love minis and have a habit of buying them on an individual basis just because I like them. If an individual player then had the urge to create a themed warband they could, but there wouldn't be a penalty for not doing so.

Incidently, don't feel lonely. There are actually a number of miniatures fans that frequent this site and have an interest in both minis and rpgs. I personally like the cross-pollination of ideas that goes on here between the two broad categories.

With the initial outlay of expenses for such a task, it makes it untouchable for me right now.  Not to mention finding the talent to sculpt the figures in the first place.

There is a Yahoo group devoted to miniature sculpting that I belong to. I'll see if I can drum up the link for you. I'm not sure what the actual outlay is, but there is a great deal of talent at the site to look over.

Best Luck,
Robert

[sandmanx]

[Grinder]
I'd make it a skirmish/Warband game based on space pirates. The advantage is that you then play into the diversity of really nice figures that are currently on the market. If an individual player then had the urge to create a themed warband they could, but there wouldn't be a penalty for not doing so.-
Actually you have gravitated toward my other ideas.  The whole system will consist of several projects.  Why just have one project?  The wargame will be a mass game of combat.  It will have a supplement to fill out a few more rules for more armies and campaign play.  After the first game, I'm going through the paces of making a graphic novel in the same universe as the game. (I used to be a pro artist in the computer gaming field.)  That will tie into the role-play game that will follow up the wargame.  Space pirates, marine teams, alien explorer teams, recon assassin teams all of these would be possible in the rpg.  I have a definite like for the d100 system.  I am also totally into skills, equipment, and background of characters.  The whole package should have something for everyone.  It's a lot of work, but the ball is rolling.  Wargame is almost complete, graphic novel is in draft, supplements are in draft, and the rpg is in my head.

There is a Yahoo group devoted to miniature sculpting that I belong to.
I've been there too.  It's filled with some good stuff.  I have to sharpen up on my sculpting skills.

Hey, I just went down to the local hobby store today, and asked about demoing the game.  The store manager was totally cool, and said he would actually play and contribute ideas.  The stone rolls faster.

-Sandman

[Sifolis]

if you asigned colors to the armies (red= mariens, blue = swarm, etc etc) you could buy little labling stickers in any office store, and just slap them on any figure to show what army is belongs to, allowing anything to be the figure...you could use checkers or any token with a colored sticker on it...you can buy these stickers pretty small.

this would only work if the rules didnt revolve around the figures being indiviually differnt inside actual armies(rifle man is different then flame thrower man etc).

i was just thinking that....

[komradebob]

Hey Sandman:
I just remembered something I'd seen previously regarding miniatures. There is an Australian minis companuy called Eureka that does something like Greg Stoltze's Ransome model, but for miniatures development. They call it the  100 and 300 CDlub. Here's the link to their site with the page talking about it:
http://eurekamin.com.au/custom.php

I doubt it is exactly what you're looking for at this stage, but it is worth considering.

[timfire]

How many times do you proofread your material?
When do you say that's it?
When does playtesting end?
If you do find some mistakes down the road, how do you handle that?

I'm going to answer these 4 questions together, because I think they all related. I'll give you the advice that was given to me (the advice I used for writing my game). The design of your game should go through 3 phases. What you call them doesn't matter.

1) Pre-Alpha: Here is where you write the rules. For the most part, this is just you and the word processor.

2) Alpha: Here is where you have a complete, usable rule-set. You shouldn't worry about the text so much, the purpose of this phase is to test out the rules. You, the designer, will likely lead most of the playtesting personally. The point here is just to make sure the rules work the way you want them to. You may have to go back to Pre-Alpha if it seems things aren't working right. When you feel confident that the game works, you can move on.

3) Beta: Here, you know the rules work. So what do you do? You get the rules in the hands of other people. You need to find some playtesters that can run the game without your help. Preferably, you want to find people who are willing to play the game using the text alone, no advice from you. The purpose here is two-fold. First, it's to make sure other people understand your text. Second, it's to find flaws & weaknesses you might have missed. As designers, when we run our own games, we tend to fill in the holes and drift people away from weaknesses. This is why its important to find people who can run it without you. They'll run it their way, and if you're inadvertantly covering something up, they'll find it. You'll likely go through a couple of drafts, but when you're confident that people can understand your text, and that your rules will stand up in the real world, it's time to publish!

Now here's what happens, people tend to skimp on Beta-testing. Often this is a practical matter, as it can be hard to find people willing to play your untested game. But this phase is very important. Your text will benefit greatly from the suggestion of others, and you'll learn alot about how your game plays.

It seems to me, even though I don't have any empiracal data to back it up, that the "issues" that crop up in games often do because of inadequate Beta-testing. So Beta-test the hell out of your game. It'll help you avoid issues down the line.

Also, if you adaquately playtest our game, it should become very obvious when your game is "ready" for the big time. You'll also have a better idea of what info you need to include, so you can (hopefully) avoid the trap of constantly adding or changing rules or text.

Good Luck!

[Sifolis]

well said...and i enjoyed reading it

[sandmanx]

Preferably, you want to find people who are willing to play the game using the text alone, no advice from you. The purpose here is two-fold. First, it's to make sure other people understand your text. Second, it's to find flaws & weaknesses you might have missed. As designers, when we run our own games, we tend to fill in the holes and drift people away from weaknesses.

Timfire thanks a lot!  Those are some precious words of wisdom.  I never thought about that before, but it is so obvious.  Now I have to get on that right away.  Super advice.  I'll set up a wargame next weekend WITHOUT ME DOH!!!  Never thought that would happen.  Timfire Tip# 003 - Life of a games designer - Many times you set up a game without you in it.  Ack!

Thanks Timfire,
Sandman

[LloydBrown]

i can sculpt (damn well actually) but i cant mass-produce the lil buggers.
Sculpting is in high demand for games right now.  With the new figure companies out there the quality is very high.  Rackham, Games Workshop, Reaper, Mammoth, etc... are all doing some fine work.  Most miniature designers are now diversifying their product lines by making games with their miniatures.  This is one of my gripes.  I like some of the figures, but don't like the games sold with them.

One of the major costs for figs is the sculpting.  If you can sculpt, you can get at least Rafm or Reaper or somebody else to cast the figs for you.  E-mail Ed Pugh or Jack, uh, Jack, uh, some guy named Jack at Rafm.  After GenCon, of course. 

[komradebob]

You might also want to check out this thread:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=16268.0

In particular the part about injection molding. Think: Your sculpting talent (sweat equity)+ company that needs parts for their games and may own an injection mold machine in the future=?

It certainly made my ears perk up.

[Addix]

i can sculpt (damn well actually) but i cant mass-produce the lil buggers.

I personally think you guys should team up or something. Casting miniatures isn't that complicated. You sure can find great info on the Internet and it's way doable. I personally tried once or twice, and it ended up pretty good. The only thing you'll need to achieve a really professional quality is a centrifuge. I remember reading an article about Rackham in a magazine several years ago, when they were starting to grow pretty big. They started with one or two people taking care of the production of the minis, with only ONE centrifuge, and only one (or maybe two) person doing all the packaging stuff. And they somehow managed to produce thousands and thousands of minis! And they did become a serious challenge for GW.

Anyway, just my opinion.
Courage, Sandman!

- Addix