Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

[MatrixGamer]

In my mind, business to stores and distributors fits two categories in my budget: income (from money actually received) and advertising (the "cost" of the discounts).  As advertising goes, those discounts are the most effective form I've tried, with convention appearances second.  They're certainly better than the magazine, direct-mail and online ads I've tried.

Well put. While I won't be racking up those discounts as money I can write off on my taxes it is a very solid way of looking at the opportunity costs of not selling the game directly. You could even keep track of that unoffically in you accounting so you'd know the amount not spent on advertising that could have been. And they paid you for that!

Chris Engle
Hamster Press

[ADGBoss]

The plan is to produce a high-quality hardback rulebook (longer, funnier, better) and many supplements and adventures. But Reality Cheque can't do it on its own.

I wanted to comment on this and change topics a bit, so forgive the intrusion as it were. The above quote really caught my eye as it has been a personal bugaboo of mine for some time. Now let me preface it by saying that that model, which I call the Corporate Gaming Model, DOES make some people a lot of money. It is in fact the same model many of the RPG producers have been using for years. It does not however, ensure a quality product or even a succesful one. The reason I get so on about the CGM is because it subboordinates the creative process to the capitalist one. Now do not get me wrong, I have no problem with people making money and have no socialist leanings what so ever... I think. The point though is that the quality fo the game suffers and indeed the design of the game is linked to the marketing scheme, i.e. Rulebook + Splatbooks. I will throw WoTC under the bus here with D&D and point out the way they put the really COOL feats in the various Complete XYZ books. That is not a design idea but indeed a marketing one, to get more money out of us. Yes, it works :) I realize but it is not, IMHO healthy for an RPG to do.

This is not to say that supplemenatary material is bad. I feel the way Ron Edwards handles the various supplements for Sorcerer is very good, because all the cool things about Sorcerer are in the original book. I do not believe that it was designed in the Rulebook + Splatbooks model.

All this brings me to the second point. It may sound a lot more assy then it is meant, because it is not meant to be assy at all. Is Tales Version 2 ready to be published? I understand that you will want to get your business model up and running as well, so when the time comes you will be ready, but the time is never going to come without a game. So, what stage of readiness is the V2 at? Is it ready for playtesting, has it been playtested? Does it need new art? Is the game playable in its current state? I am not a succesful Indie designer, in fact I have never published a game. It is of course my intention to do so but in any case, take what I say with a grain of salt if you wish: No business model is going to make a crappy game sell, not in the current market. Some of the current gamers were not even alive the last time Tales was out. Others were too young to remember it.Clever marketing and a sane business model won't get people to buy the game, well not en masse anyway.

Again just my 2 lunars

Sean

[leegarv]

Hey folks,

Sorry I've been quiet these last couple days, but my internet access is a fickle little minx. To answer a few of the questions and points brought up here:

There seems to be a bizzarre division among internet shoppers and brick-and-mortar shoppers out there.  The vocal majortity of folks on this forum seem (note: I said "seem" - I do not know the workings of your minds, so don't flame me) to discount the value of, and in some cases refuse to patronize, the old fashioned FLGS. On the other side of that debate, people I talk to at my FLGS mostly tell me that they never buy online. If these groups are both telling the truth, then there are TWO complete and seperate markets out there, with patrons of each exhibiting a certain disdain for the other sort of business. In a hobby as already marginalized and befringed as ours, this seems self-defeating. I personally believe that the successful publisher will, and must, pay heed to both markets. Now, of course, the numbers that make a successful web-based business are much smaller than the numbers that make a successful real-world business, but the world has been and will continue to change. It may shock some folks, but I know several gamers who do not have internet access; some who don't even own computers!  They have spending money, too, and they like a good game.  Of course, these are just my thoughts on it.

To the other points that have been raised, The 2nd edition is still being playtested (It's already gone through about five years mor testing than the first version did), and there is no art except for a single painting by Vicky Wyman that I was hoping to use as a plate in the book. I do have a talented young artist lined up for some of the chores, but my vision is to have several different voices on the book, to give greater breadth to the player's inspirations.  If my model seems old fashioned, its because that's the era I came of age in. But please note; I said core rulebook, suplements, and adventures.  I never said "splatbooks"  there will be no "Ultimate Barfly" or "Ultimate Space Ranger" books for TF2V2. By supplements, I meant what you would probably call sourcebooks; campaign guides, locations, organizations, alternate dimensions, and anything else that may be fun. The rules as they stand are certainly adjustable to the tastes of those playing, but they need no seasoning from extra books to do this. Hell, the only "splatbook" from the first edition was the first half of Bar Wars, and those rules (or what they have become) are going into the main book.

I have alot of faith in my core design. That much should be obvious. Maybe this is just nostalgia, maybe its the result of that one week in 1996 that I can't remember, but I think its good, and I think that it can be both good AND comercially successful. Better mousetraps and all that.

But I still have very little idea how to get it off the ground.

[Eero Tuovinen]

But I still have very little idea how to get it off the ground.

In six easy steps:

1) Get the text finished, illustrate
2a) Lay out in two versions: screen and print
2b) Create a web-site with information and the basics of community building; get a forum space
3) Sell in PDF format for a fair price (probably about half of the equivalent printed book)
4) Create fans, preferentially alpha actives; get reviews and especially actual play reports
5) Use the income to plan and execute a print version
6a) Use the cult popularity of the game to leverage it into the gaming shops through your distributor of choice
6b) Sell the print version from your own website alongside the PDF (perhaps giving customers from step 3 a discount on the print version)

That's pretty much the basic theory of minimal capital, minimal risk, maximal market penetration. I credit Ron for inventing it. If you don't see big companies doing it, the chances are that it's because they need to act fast and work within a quarterly framework, which is just enough to advertize powerfully, but not nearly enough to generate an actual track record for the release-of-the-month. A game published through the above steps will start picking up sales after six months of being available, and by all accounts continues to sell for a decade, even. A game published through traditional means seems to sell exactly as long as you continue publishing new supplements.

BUT: From what I've read, nobody who has tried the above model or a variation thereof has actually been happy with the retail sales compared to web-sales. One could take this as an indication that the retail channel doesn't work nearly as well financially for a company without the resources of WotC at their disposal. Gamers are a reticient bunch, and you don't usually get them to buy anything outside their favored game line without major influence. The active buyers usually are also active in the web, so you catch them through those channels. Your average FLGS customer might think that he's a potential customer with ready cash, but my experience has been that that cash is only available for high-profile game lines that have "support", whatever that is. A person might think himself willing to spend money in gaming if he's in the habit of picking up new CCGs or Heroclix boxes, but that's still far off from somebody who'd buy what the average indie rpg publisher is peddling. So it might be wise to consider skipping the retail step alltogether, unless you have some particular and special strategy for penetrating it. Because I'm not seeing even big companies doing that well in retail, and they are the ones with the big advertising budgets.

--

So, what I want to say here is that you're quite right about there being solely retail markets you can't tap through the internet. That's true. However, your priority as a publisher should be to FIRST evaluate whether that market is profitable for you, and THEN start planning how to get in there. The point is that there is alternatives, if all you want is to sell a game and make a profit. You don't have to take all the risks the retail channel entails, and you shouldn't, unless you have a solid, realistic plan based on real knowledge about the market. Too many folks go retail just because they think it's the only option. You see, when something like that is your only choice, then you easily figure out that "hey, if others can do it, then so can I" and never stop to consider whether you can even be profitable that way.

[Jake Norwood]

I just found this thread, so I'll chime in. I'm Jake Norwood, the guy who created/wrote The Riddle of Steel and a few years later sold it to the current owners, who are doing a good job with it.

And Lance, I am still Indie--I've got other games out there some of you are playing! TROS just isn't indie anymore.

Here's my tips.

Avoid the glossy hardcover. It's not really worth it, IMO. Maybe do a limited number. Companies such as Express Media (in Nashville) can make this very affordable in small quantities, which was previously impossible.

Internet Sales and Print-on-demand technology, which is now incredibly good, especially at a specialty company (again, Express Media) as opposed to Kinkos.

Word of Mouth is what sells games at the small-press level. Don't expect anything else. Capitalize on this. Luke Crane of Burning Wheel is a ninja master at this, as is Ron Edwards. I think I did it on accident, via a large amount of still debated controversial marketing strategies (there is no bad press).

Enthusiasm and a solid game. Production values, honestly, come waaaayyy behind a solid game. Production values might -- MIGHT -- get you a flash in the pan (think Children of the Sun). A good game will take you very, very far (think Sorcerer's trip from text files to hardcover over several years).

Jake