Envoy – premise development and mechanics to support it

[Kaare Berg]

Envoy – Sci-Fi cyberpunk

I guess it comes to everyone who spends an unhealthy amount of time here at the forge. Sooner or later one wants to design a game. I harbor no illusions about creating something revolutionary or mind bending new; I'll leave that to the pioneers here. But I want to design something solid.

I also had to get this down in ones and zeroes. There is a question below, so bear with me.

My design goal is simple: a tight game that provides the gritty techno fetishistic violence that I miss from back in the CP 2020 (and earlier) days, without requiring separate sourcebooks detailing the difference between a .38 and a .40 gun, or a twenty page list of cyberware

Initially the Premise I was exploring was: In a violent and hyper commercial world, where do you draw the line?

I also here defined violence as something that is both physical and emotional.

But I wanted more. The premise above became too shallow for me.

My favourite part of all Sci-Fi is the concept of artificial intelligence (AI) as explored by Ken McLeod and William Gibson. The works of Richard Morgan and his exploration of man and digital immortality/morality in his Takeshi Kovacs series (this is where my working title comes from) also play a major part of my design parameters. There are other sources of inspiration (like Transhuman GURPS by SJ games) but these three authors are the main ones.

This leads to a core concept; the character is a digital copy on a small chip, called a cortial stack, and your body reduced to a tool. With all the questions this entails.

This gives me a second premise: What is human when one can digitize the self?

Now take the formula Character + Setting = Situation

CharactersInspired by Richard Morgan the characters are Envoys, trained to be sociopaths used to do horrible, horrible shit, then dumped. Their training excludes them from holding anything but menial jobs and their only skills are to manipulate situations and kill. These skills are in high demand.

Setting:
Immortality is commercially available (and installed at the age of three) through implants called Cortial Stacks which record your personality, memories and experiences. It records you. Your body dies, buy a new one (assuming you have anything above basic insurance.) This enables those in power to maintain their grip indefinitely, leading to a static status quo. Unfortunately this happened in a less than utopian hyper commercialized future.

So now I'm getting somewhere. I sincerely believe that violence gradually kills the soul; both for the perpetrator and the victim. Raising an interesting problem when that self is immortal (bar accidental erasure or destruction and those problems).

I've got marginalized characters and a static setting that oppresses them. There is a demand for their violent skills, and this way they can get out of the rut they are in. But violence kills the self.
Having two premises leads to diluted stories. Therefore I combine all the ideas above giving me a revised Premise; Immortality is real if you have money, but the only way to make that money kills your soul, how much will you sacrifice to live forever?

With the premise in place I've currently developed this structure for the game, liberally borrowing ideas all over the shop. Credit will be given where credit is due, but right now I'll save the bandwidth.

Currently it looks like this:

Core system
   - Two tiered conflict/task system
                - D6≥4 = success
      - roll Xd6 (X= cortial attribute + skill + sleeve + gene/hardware + tools)
   - Count successes
      - one is basic success. Overflow either to next roll or to effect.
      - opposed rolls only count difference (high – low)
      - if obstacle is higher than 1 roll must exceed to count
   - three effect levels*
      - roll three dice. 
         - add overflow and equipment
                - low, guaranteed result
      - medium, two successes
      - high, three successes
   - Additional Tier for granularity?
   - physical,mental and social damage
      - bruised (low effect)
      - bloodied (medium effect)
      - broken (high effect)
   - trauma pool
      - negative dice 
      - grows through trauma like sleeve destruction ("death") or inflicting harm
      - reduced by counseling
      - gives XP by using it
                - memory pool
                                - rerolls or "shadeshift" (BW thinking)
                                - limit at 2*recall
                   - envoy training permits total recall = no limit to this pool

Character generation
   - Cortial stack creation
      - recall; memory and problem solving
      - response; empathy and social 
      - resolve; mental endurance and force of will
      - 1 is low 3 average 6 human max 
   - lifepath 
                                - skill procurement
         - 0 skilled
         - 1 competent/professional
         - 2 expert
         - 3 master
      - asset generation
      - trauma pool
                                - memory pool
Asset system
   - sleeve construction
      - physical traits
         - mobility; general body control and speed
         - coordination; fine motor control
         - endurance; stamina and durability
         - power; strength 
      - geneware
      - hardware
   - equipment construction
                               - Weapons
                                  - beam, particle, projectile
                                  - melee
      - Tools
      - Memes
   - in game credit
Reward system
   - Character growth
      - relationships
      - skill
      - memory pool
   - Player narration rights
      - control pool
Setting
   - V. Bakers setting guidelines before the fanfic discussion
      - open threads for players to fill in
      - guidelines for this 
         - toolbox 
         - how to push violence in a mature way

The advice I am looking for here initially, is based the final premise. Is this doable without a sorts of humanity mechanism? If a humanity mechanism needs be present then it will be sorcerer type and not WoD type humanity.

I am looking at a mechanic called Trauma Pool (above), which represents the negative effects of the Trauma, and its growth. I do however not want this to be merely negative, thus the XP for use. This is to tempt the players to push their characters that little bit closer to the edge. Instead of XP should this be more narrative control, empowering the player not the character (Control pool above)?

As for the rest of the rules the "posting" plan was to focus on some aspects and then discuss them in separate posts. Which may be sporadic because I am four weeks from fatherhood and extremely busy at work. Please do not take this as lack of interest. I really need your help here.

In the end I do wish to see this through to a final print version, though economically it will most likely be POD pdf.


K

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

To me, your premise is Violence kills the soul, the rest of it is just extra description.  And that's a fine premise, IMO.  I like how you've set your game up.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see it as you've made the stakes of the game your Humanity rather than success at killing and accumulation of XP (which is great).  So let me address your question.

Do you need a Sorcereresque Humanity mechanic? No.  I think your pools will work.  You can put it like this, if your Trauma pool is greater than your regular dice pool (got a name for that, btw?) then you've lost your humanity and your character becomes a homicidal maniac- in essence, you lose.  The character becomes the GM's (this is somewhat like sorcerer).

I like how you want to make Trauma alluring, so why have the dice it grants give a negative bonus?  Let the players add them in to their rolls.  That way they not only get XP, but also bonus dice.  That will definately make them want to engage the premise a lot more!  In addition, something that might add to the need for trauma is to have the regular die pool and the trauma die pool add up to some sort of status score.  It's your repuation as a killer.  The higher your rep, the more likely you are ot get hired.  Get hired enough and you can make enough contacts/money/prestige to retire in peace.  Again, this loads up the need for trauma.

I also might suggest that you make all the characters cyborgs of some kind.  This way, whatever tool they need, their bodies simply transform to provide it.  Remember, the stakes are Humanity not whether or not they can hack the computer system.  Weapons and tools are really a mechanic to aid in task resolution, not conflict resolution.

Let me know what you think of those ideas and we can discuss/refine them further.

One question real quick.  When you write Xd6, could you better explain how X is determined?  I didn't grasp it as I read your post.  Thanks :)

Peace,

-Troy

[Adam Dray]

This looks pretty fucking sweet. First, a quick warning about the name, then a deeper critique.

You might reconsider the name Envoy. Peter Adkinson of Wizards of the Coast (before they bought TSR) wrote a "system-independent" game description system in 1993 called Envoy. You probably don't need to change your name but be aware that there might be a little confusion.

Now onto business.

I think your Premise, "How much will you sacrifice to live forever?" does need System support. I think you'll need to define "live forever" and the "how much [you will sacrifice]" in game terms. The first part is easier. Any kind of life mechanics will suffice. Your "physical, mental, social damage" mechanic should work.

But how are you going to quantify what characters sacrifice? The game outline seems better to support "Who will you kill to live forever?" That is, there's lots of stuff about killing in it, but not much about sacrifice.

Regarding your Trauma Pool, I'm not sure how or when the negative dice get applied. Is that the realm of the player to apply them, then, when they feel they can absorb the extra risk for a gain in XP?  Is it the only way a player can earn XP? What you've labeled as "Reward System" is really your advancement system (okay, only half true: I see you have some metagame rules there, too). The reward system is the set of rules that encourages players to behave the way you, as a designer, hope they'll act when they play your game.

Maybe you can show us a short example of play that highlights the Trauma Pool?

I think your Trauma Pool is the "what you will sacrifice" in the Premise, but I'm not sure. If so, then that answers one of my questions. I need to understand how Trauma is applied to the conflict resolution system to really grok the implications though.

I have lots of other comments and questions, but they diverge from the question you asked us to address, so I'll hold off.

[iain]

I like the premise of 'how much will you sacrifice to be immortal' but i too think that this needs system support.  For a start every character will need things that they hold dear where they have to make a choice to sacrifice that thing, be it ideological or physical, in return for extended life. You would also need to make clear the benefits and downfalls of choosing to sacrifice or not. Emotional impact certainly for those who choose to sacrifice, and maybe some kind of hindrance to their memory recall and that sort of thing. Immortallity would give you the chance to make very long term investments in things and take advantage of your knowledge over those around you, but would boredom and apathy not also become a factor? maybe your characters would become numb to bits of the setting as they grow older: humour, sex, sports etc.Basically the things that would bring them amusement.  Just a few initial thoughts.
Cheers
Iain

[Adam Dray]

Wow, imagine that the game includes a list of some critical human qualities, like laughter, trust, empathy -- better yet, make them very specific like "laughs at jokes," "trusts strangers," "empathy for another person's loss of loved ones," and so on. Then, at critical junctions in the character's development, the character can lose some of these due to sacrifices for immortality. The player has to select one and add it to a list of traits his character no longer has, and he must role-play accordingly. That'd be sick and twisted.

[John Harper]

I'm a big fan of Morgan's books, so I just wanted to drop in and say: Cool! I'll be watching the development of this one.

Also: It's "cortical" stack. Not "cortial." :-)

[M Jason Parent]

am looking at a mechanic called Trauma Pool (above), which represents the negative effects of the Trauma, and its growth. I do however not want this to be merely negative, thus the XP for use. This is to tempt the players to push their characters that little bit closer to the edge. Instead of XP should this be more narrative control, empowering the player not the character (Control pool above)?

Wow.

I am -so- in love with this idea that I am twitching here trying to figure out how to type again. A mechanic where you want to push yourself closer to the edge is something I DESPERATELY want in my cyberpunk games. This gets rid of the need for a Humanity mechanic a la CyberPunk. A realy cybered person has heaploads of trauma already, living on the edge is not a good thing in the long term. Did I mention I'm a HUGE CyberPunk junky? (I was one of the writers tapped for the CP 2020 to CP3 transition books... that I don't think will ever appear).

That system you describe is ESSENTIAL, in my opinion, for any game that allows for personal augmentation - make it a choice of strengths that entail additional weaknesses.

<HIJACK>
Outside of Cyberpunk, I was thinking about how I could make this work in my own Junk Dreams game... then realized that the basic mechanic is already there with the Immersion Levels I'm using - deep immersion results in being more able to influence the world around you, but also how easily other elements in the junk world can affect you.
<END HIJACK>

[Kaare Berg]

Thank you all for the quick feedback.

You might reconsider the name Envoy. Peter Adkinson of Wizards of the Coast (before they bought TSR) wrote a "system-independent" game description system in 1993 called Envoy.

Changed, new working title will be Altered Carbon.

I'll pull all this feedback into the thinkbox and look at it.

Just to clarify it, Premise is Violence kills the self., I've never been good at boiling down a premise to the core issue.
Soul is tied into metaphysics/beliefsystem issues that I do not want in this game. Therefore Self.
Immortality is guaranteed since the self is digitized and stored in the cortial stack. It is not the end in itself.

Initially the idea of a cortial stack as character came from an discussion about equipment. As I played around with the idea of the game and the whole violence destroys self issue popped up it became a logical part of the system. We are talking about the destruction of the self (our intellectual and emotional being) so it seemed fitting to seperate the two.

Thus your "self" is the sum of your memories and emotions all stored on a little chip. Your body becomes a disposable tool to further alienate the self. This all is to accenutate the destruction of the self through violence.

Enter the Trauma Pool.

Before I get into my current ideas on this lets look at the core mechanic.

Core Mechanic:
Roll a pool of D6 (conflict pool), counting each die that comes up 4+ as a success.
Conflict Pool is determined by one of three cortial stats - recall, response or resolve - with modifiers added to them.
Modifiers come from applicable skill, Sleeve (body) stat, gene or hardware (aka cyberware and bioware), equipment and bonus dice from either trauma or memory pool.
Normally one success is enough.
It expands a bit more but this should make the following more clearer.

I've mentioned the memory pool.

Now this is all sweetness, a pool of past memories that you can apply to get rerolls/bonus dice.
To refresh this pool you need to spend time with realtionships and friends reminiscing.

You gain both pool and relationships by buying them with XP. (more on this in another post, )

Back to the Trauma pool.

Trauma pool grows by performing acts of violence when it is expedient to do so.  Hurting someone in self defense does not cause Trauma (or as much, jury still out), doing so because it gets the job done quicker/easier does.
It also grows by being the victim of violence, fighting with your girlfriend dosen't cause trauma, having her sleep with your best friend to get even does. High up here is having your sleeve blown to bits 'cause you'll remember it when you decant into a new one..

Reducing Trauma Pool is done through thearpy (asset draining) or by spending time and good memories (reducing memory pool).
If your Trauma Pool ever exceeds your resolve stat (x2?) you can no longer use the memory pool.
Therapy can not reduce Trauma below your resolve stat (x2?), therapy can help you deal with it, but you got to help yourself at some point.

If at some point your Trauma Pool excceds your response stat (x2?) there will be a conflict between the Trauma Pool and the response stat. If the response stat looses you have to scratch one of the PCs relationships. (symbolic for the character insulating himself a bit more, you get the motivation here and reducing your memory pool refresh options).

Based on Troys comments I'll look for a way to have Trauma influence the asset system (more trauma, more assets) and I've removed the idea of the "negative dice". The problem with Trauma influencing assets is that my initial idea is to tie not only memory but assets to contacts/relationships.

One idea is that by severing a relationship it becomes a Bad Relationship. Giving more assets, but causing further trauma when invoked.

This could play in with Adam's suggestions.

Again thanks for your inputs.

Peace

Kaare

[Kaare Berg]

Maybe you can show us a short example of play that highlights the Trauma Pool?

Typed this up between exel sheets at work. Forgive bad Syntax.

Example of actual play

Jack burst through the door on a black market decant-clinic with a handful of cortial stacks and a head full of trauma. His "on and off" girlfriend Audrey (Relationship) is there hanging nervously over the shoulder of the shoulder of the decant-tech Besson.
Keifer (Playing Jack): Damn it what is she doing here? I throw the stacks into a waiting tray and say "Besson I need you to find Lee and hook him up for me. I need to interrogate him now."
The GM: Besson turns to you; "I can't, the mainframe is busy. I am decanting Paul"(another Relationship).
Keifer: Oh great double whammy, thanks dude.. (As Jack) "Run it parallel"
GM: Audrey turns to you, her eyes wide. Bessons says: "I can't do that, I might loose Paul. It will kill him. Real death."
Roger (Playing Curtis, waiting elsewhere): Keif, we need that info before we board the boat or its going to be twice as hard finding the target.
Keifer: Looks at his character sheet chews his lip a bit.
GM: What do you do?
Keifer: I pull my gun and point it at Besson. "DO IT!"
GM: Besson looks at Audrey, and then starts slotting the Stacks into a reader. Audrey looks at you with tears in here eyes. "Jack, don't do this!"
Keifer: "I'm sorry" I press my gun to Besson's head. "Hurry!"
GM: Besson flinches. "Look man, if I speed this up it's going to turn Paul to slush." Audrey cries: "JACK!" Keif, you push this I am going to hit you hard with Trauma, you are pushing two relationships way over the edge. You want to this?
Keifer: thinks a bit, looks to Roger.
Roger: your call man.
Keifer: Fuck it. I push the gun harder into Besson's head, "Do it".
GM: Audrey screams and throws her self at you ...
Keifer: I hold her.
GM: ... while Besson closes down the decant on Paul. Here, tosses a couple of beads representing trauma over to Keifer.
Keifer: looks at His Trauma Pool, curses vividly, My Trauma Pool just exceeded my Response Threshold. Rolls the opposed pools, and his Response looses. He thinks a bit. My relationship with Audrey turns Bad since I just killed her ex-husband.
GM: She pushes away from you and sits down by the wall all quiet. Besson turns from you and punches a few keys, closing the warning windows as they pop up. After a short while, he hands you a VR set. "I've found him, here, I've hooked up the interrogation"
Keifer: I look at Audrey, then I hook up.
GM: Roger, Curtis gets a . . . and so it goes

The more I think about it the more do I wish to include relationships into the effects of Trauma Pool.

I'll may have to redefine the Self.

Later

[Adam Dray]

Changed, new working title will be Altered Carbon.

Dude, you know that's the name of Richard K. Morgan's book where you got the "cortical stack" idea, right?  Serious potential for trouble there.  Very cool name, but so very much not yours to steal.

And it is "cortical," not "cortial."

In fact, the "decanting" thing is Morgan's, too.  I understood that you were borrowing some core ideas from Morgan, but I didn't get the impression till lately that you were ripping off the entire thing, wholesale.  Really, dude, be very careful here.

Keifer: "I'm sorry" I press my gun to Besson's head. "Hurry!"
GM: Besson flinches. "Look man, if I speed this up it's going to turn Paul to slush." Audrey cries: "JACK!" Keif, you push this I am going to hit you hard with Trauma, you are pushing two relationships way over the edge. You want to this?

This is the first part of your play example that I see any real influence of System. I'm not saying that System doesn't get involved earlier, but it's definitely not clear to me how (probably more Setting than anything else there).

I don't understand how the GM makes the determination that this action causes Trauma. If so, why doesn't Jack's insistence earlier ("I need to interrogate him now") inflict Trauma. Yeah, in IC terms, there's a gun involved; I get that. In System terms, what's the difference?  How do you define pushing a relationship "way over the edge"?

GM: ... while Besson closes down the decant on Paul. Here, tosses a couple of beads representing trauma over to Keifer.
Keifer: looks at His Trauma Pool, curses vividly, My Trauma Pool just exceeded my Response Threshold.

I just don't buy this interaction. GM warned Keifer. Keifer did it anyway. Why is he suddenly cursing? He did it to himself. Did he think the GM was bluffing? Can the GM bluff about this? Or is the GM required to apply a Trauma rule no matter what?

You skimmed over the actual dice rolling, but that was the part I needed most to see. Can you expand those parts a bit and actually show some sample dice and comparisons and stuff so I can understand the system?

My Trauma Pool just exceeded my Response Threshold. Rolls the opposed pools, and his Response looses.

This seems like two comparisons where one might suffice. Why roll at all? If the roll is interesting, why not just roll every time Trauma is added, even if it doesn't exceed the Response Threshold?

I do like the bit about players defining the effects of their Trauma. It creates new conflicts for the player, and that drives play forward. Any guidelines for adjudicating what kind of effects players can or should create? Do we just trust players to create interesting ones? If the GM doesn't think it's appropriate, does he have veto power?

[Kaare Berg]

Adam, all terms are subject to change.

Dude, you know that's the name of Richard K. Morgan's book where you got the "cortical stack" idea, right?  Serious potential for trouble there.  Very cool name, but so very much not yours to steal.

I am going to change everything to make sure I do NOT violate anyone'd IPs. But right now I'd rather focus my creative energies into getting the system up and running, then I can worry about terminology. I appriciate your concern.

Cortical Stack, you are right. This is sneak posted from work. Spelling wiil be an issue. This term also has to change.

I don't understand how the GM makes the determination that this action causes Trauma. If so, why doesn't Jack's insistence earlier ("I need to interrogate him now") inflict Trauma. Yeah, in IC terms, there's a gun involved; I get that. In System terms, what's the difference?  How do you define pushing a relationship "way over the edge"?

Paul and Audrey are Relationships. Systemwise the Character Jack is inflicting Harm on his Relationships. This is one of the quickest ways to inflict Trauma upon onself. I realise that this example dosen't really illustrate the mechanical aspect of play. I was just an idea of the kind of play I am looking for.

I just don't buy this interaction. GM warned Keifer. Keifer did it anyway.

This was just the way some of my players would react. They would choose to push it too far, then curse when it happens. Not because they are angry or feel unjustly treated. Its just that sometimes when I push them they do not allways think things through. In my group this is a natural reaction. I see why this caused confusion.

This seems like two comparisons where one might suffice. Why roll at all? If the roll is interesting, why not just roll every time Trauma is added, even if it doesn't exceed the Response Threshold?

Here is how the Thresholds work.
Stat = Threshold. You get trauma over threshold, roll your Trauma Pool against your stat pool. (aka the self)
Trauma wins - bad stuff happens.
Stat wins you are safe until you pass next multiple of Stat, which is your next treshold. Roll again.
Repeat.

I was helpful for me to write up this Exampla, I went home and realised that I had something more to do. From ideas sparked by your replies I made a quantum leap. I'll close this thread and and restart another under the working title Carbon Soul.

Take a look there and see if this example gets a bit clearer. I'll see if I can write another one over the weekend.

And this scene was lifted from my favourit TV show for the moment, and illustrates the kind of though choices I want to make the players have to make.

K

[btrc]

I've been reading this thread, and I may have missed it, but what about the effects of indirect violence? That is, if I order an underling to whack someone, I have neither done nor received violence, but someone does and receives it nonetheless.

How does this play out?

Greg Porter
BTRC guy

[Kaare Berg]

Hi Greg,

Initially there is no way to insulate one self from violence. However this isn't a game about sending assasins, its an the game about being that assassin. However Trauma would come at the moment of giving the order, not at its execution.


Due to massive IP violation and an eureka moment this thread is closed and redefined here.