[Feng Shui (partly)] Uninvolved player problems

[Jack Aidley]

The Feng game I've been running stuttered to an end last night, and although much of it was fun, I'm feeling increasingly disillusioned with two of the players. Some background can be found in these two threads:

[Feng Shui] Finding stuff out by asking which discusses the earlier sections of the game, and some of my attempts to get player feedback.
[Universalis] First Steps which describes a game of Universalis I had with Dave & Kev - the two players who are playing in a manner I get along with.

The group consists of myself, Dave - who's been playing with me for about a year now, Kev - who joined at the start of the Feng game and Adam & Jude - a couple who joined a few months back when I lost a different player. Adam I'd played with before, with both us playing in a long running, heavily rail-roaded and largely disfunctional WFRP game, Jude I'd gamed with only in a short one off in which she'd been quite active and entertaining.

Neither Adam nor Jude have made any real effort to step forward and take an active role in things. I feel at the moment like their being dragged along by the rest of the group and not really contributing anything much positive to the group. Needless to say I'm not best happy about this situation and am looking for ways to improve matters.

Some of the problem has been running Feng itself; I'm not hugely familiar with it and have struggled to find a suitable challenge level while the rules themselves are highly inbalanced and break-pointy so in the heavily combat-centered game Feng encourages you to run the two non-combat characters struggled. Part of the problem was the set-up we came up with at the start. While Dave & Kev's characters had a close link (Dave's character's sister/Kev's character's girlfriend was murdered) and they played off that well throughout the game. Jude's character hooked in, in that she'd been working with the murdered girl when she was killed. But that link never went anywhere in the game, my impression is that this was because Jude never really got into the in-character riffing that Dave & Kev were setting up rather than because the possibility wasn't there. Adam's character was an amnesiac assasin, an idea which, frankly, didn't work in the context of the game. He was linked in because he found a photo of Jenny in a locker he had the key for and didn't know why it was there. About the only time Adam brightened up and involved himself in the game was when I directly fed him focused plot about his character's background.

First up, Adam. Adam has his moments, but he's usually either inactive or choosing to do something inane. I can't think of an occasion he's stepped on up and put himself in the story.

In the long-running WFRP, I mentioned, in which we were both players. Adams character was the yob to the straight-laced characters played by myself and the third player. The major positive thing I remember Adam getting active  about was leading and training a band of archers. He also seemed to enjoy playing off our characters lack of understaning of Dwarven culture. Mostly however, he usually rumbled along being mildly disruptive and silly. At the time I put this down to the near total lack of freedom to make meaningful decisions that we were allowed throughout much of the campaign, a feeling reinforced by the discussions I had with him when giving him a lift home.

Before the Feng game, I ran some Pretender with everyone except Kev. In this Adam played a Demon. Adam was a lot more involved in this game than he was in the Feng Shui but his contribution was generally disruptive and anarchic rather than helpful. By helpful I mean both that he rarely helped create or resolve situations which were interesting and went somewhere or had his character act in a way which was maximally beneficial to the group in game. He prefered to pull stunts such as lacing the local soup kitchens food for the homeless with cocaine.

At one point, I think during the Pretender game, Dave couldn't make it for a couple of weeks and I ran a short dungeon-bash game with some rules I made up on the spot. In this game, both Adam & Jude seemed to have a lot of fun, although much of it derived from the same kind of anarchic silliness that Adam has pulled elsewhere that fitted a lot better into the inane jaunt style of game I was running. I'm wondering whether this kind of tightly defined game with a light-hearted borderline comic tone is the kind of game that they're used to and will thrive in, unfortunately, it's not the kind of game I wish to run in the longer term and if this is the case, I wonder whether I can pursuade them to step up and take a more active role in shaping the game they are in.

Finally, we have the Feng Shui game. In the first session Adam took very much a watching role, but this was fair enough considering the setup and I figured he'd be more active as the game moved on. The next session he remained largely uninvolved, but following on from my questions session I assertained that he wanted to play stuff relating to his character's background and have me make stuff up about it, following this line of thought I was able to get him more involved during the third session however, he only really took interest when the plot specifically revolved around his character's background and otherwise he both didn't really engage and often chose to put his character as far from being involved as possible. This pattern continued for much of the rest of the game, with Adam only really lighting up when his character's background became involved. There was also occasional moments of just silliness. Including largely excluding himself from a major fight scene and instead choosing to be silly.

I think that'll do for now, I'll write about Jude later.

So, I'm thinking that Adam is used to playing in games in which the players have no real power over what happens and has thus become used to getting his fun by, in essence, playing up or lapping up snippets of focused plot thrown to him by the GM. I don't really know that much about Adam's roleplaying background however, apart from the games I discuss above and the fact he's quite an active LARPist, so this is merely my supposition. Do we concur? Or does someone have other insights? If I'm correct, or if I'm not, what can I try to pursuade him to play more actively? Can I, in fact, do such a thing?

We're going to play some Universalis next week, partly because I think it's a great game and partly because I want to see what they do when there isn't a GM pushing plot at them. Could be interesting.

[Rob Carriere]

So, I'm thinking that Adam is used to playing in games in which the players have no real power over what happens and has thus become used to getting his fun by, in essence, playing up or lapping up snippets of focused plot thrown to him by the GM.

Jack,
I see three possibilities. Your text quoted above is one. Another is that this is defensive behavior. If you're not involved, you can't get hurt. If you've made fun of it, it can't hurt you. That sort of thing. Of course, these two possibilities can mix and mingle quite well.

The third is that he simply likes silly games.

I consider that third possibility the least likely, as I'd expect more consistent fun-making from him, rather than the mix of fun-making and withdrawal that you describe. Of course, I wasn't there, so please add salt to this opinion.

Now, the character he's playing is a very double-edged sword. On the one hand, he can now blame just about anything on the GM and so dissociate from the game. On the other hand, he's given you the perfect tool to frame him into the other players' stuff. I'd be tempted to set up connections to all the major background stuff of the other players and to give him a double, conflicting set of memories. ("You remember being ordered to kill her. You also remember being ordered to protect her at all costs.") Now you've drawn him in, but the choices are still his. Then make sure you honor whatever choice he makes; show him that it's safe to come out.

As usual, the bad stuff for the character should be stuff that the player finds cool. Check that you are indeed hitting that goal and, after the check, point it out to the player..

SR
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[Stickman]

One of the other players (Dave) here.

I think a lot of the issue is probably due to those two players not being familiar with games where they can make gross changes to the story / setting through either thier characters or thier own desires. In essence I don't think they are used to setting up goals or desires for thier characters. If you'd asked them, on the spot, what their characters would have wanted at any particular time, I feel you'd likely get some umming and erring and maybe a vaguely defined, weak goal (get rich ... get out of this mess ...). Maybe the solution will be to create characters with them with a definate, strong goal and a series of mini goals per session,  possibly with a Keys type reward structure.

From a player point of view, it's been enjoyable playing Feng Shui but frustrating feeling that the players as a unit were so dysfunctional (in a non-interesting manner).

I'm looking forward to Universalis because, well, it rocks. However, I'm extremely aware from our Capes games, that if you don't buy in, and buy in big, it's likely the game will deflate.

I'd guess that a while playing in a strongly defined game, which rewarded them significantly for designing and following thier own goals, would be good for both players.

[Callan S.]

While Dave & Kev's characters had a close link (Dave's character's sister/Kev's character's girlfriend was murdered) and they played off that well throughout the game. Jude's character hooked in, in that she'd been working with the murdered girl when she was killed. But that link never went anywhere in the game, my impression is that this was because Jude never really got into the in-character riffing that Dave & Kev were setting up rather than because the possibility wasn't there. Adam's character was an amnesiac assasin, an idea which, frankly, didn't work in the context of the game. He was linked in because he found a photo of Jenny in a locker he had the key for and didn't know why it was there.

Just a note on this: Dave and Kev's material let each player riff off the other player without GM assistance. Judes link just didn't hook into that...she was the girls co-worker, that hardly matches the thematic strength of Dave and Kev's dead sister/dead lover theme. If she had somehow let that killing happen because she was in love with Kev's PC and wanted him herself, and every player knew this (PC's don't though), then it would have let her riff off them really well.

Adam couldn't do a thing, until you let him by revealing his past. I'd be really interested what would happen if he had some link like the above, that allowed him to riff off other players without GM assistance.

[Jack Aidley]

Rob,

That's a great idea, but unfortunately the Feng game's ended now so I won't get to act on it. I shall remember it for future reference.

Callan,

I wasn't clear - Jude's character was working with the murdered girl on a job (specifically, they were stealing a package from the Chen Chien building) on the night she was working - that's a bit more than a 'co-worker' connection and Dave, in particular, set up their relationship with plenty of potential tension that Jude never went anywhere with. There were undoubtably problems with the setup of the game, but I think the problems with Jude and Adam fit into a larger pattern rather than being down to the game itself.

[Jack Aidley]

Well last night was interesting. We played some Universalis as planned and, somewhat to my surprise, both Adam and Jude were invovled and interesting. Adam still threw in a spot of his trademark silliness, but it came alongside a solid bedrock of useful contribution this time so that was fine.

So, I know they can do it, the question for me to figure out now is why they haven't in the games so far, what it is about Universalis that meant they stepped on up and what I can do in future to get the same affect in the more normal games I tend to run.