[Realm] Number crunching - feedback from the math folk ?

[sayter]

Allright, im trying to write up the rules section. But first thing is first, I need to be sure the numbers make sense before I commit them to paper.

The details:

The system uses only d6, 2 to be precise.
All rolls add attributes, and other modifiers where they apply.

Attributes range from 1 (poor) to 12(legendary).
Skills range from 1 (neophyte) to 6 (master)
Other things added to rolls are Aptitudes (max of 3) and Facets (no cieling, but can only be raised through RP and story elements. These generally will be no higher than 3 on an average, as they can only initialyl be selected at character creation)

General skill rolls are made using Attribute + Skill + modifiers +2d6 vs a target number.
Opposed rolls are made using Attribute + Skill + mods +2d6, vs the opponents roll.

Close as i can figure, the average dice roll will be 7 on the 2d6. The character attributes will usually not range much higher than 6 to 8 (until the character ages through several campaigns). Skills will likely average 2 to 4.

Aptitudes are a special case roll, as are Facets. Facets are only used when they fit a story element ( a character with a facet of, say "Soldier +3" would get a +3 bonus when dealing with military issues or personnel for instance). Aptitudes are like special case attribute bonuses. The attributes I use are Body/Self/Spirit/Mind. Aptitudes might be things like "Brute Strength +3" which would only affect strength rolls.

Using 2d6, and all stats maxing at values of either  6 or 12,  what is a logical target number baseline to aim for? Especially worrisome is the attributes themselves. I am thinking 6 may be a better max than 12, but my mathmatical ability is not exactly astounding. currently I have it as such:

15= Extremely easy
18= Easy
24= Average
30= Tough
36= Difficult
37+=Impossible

The maximum roll, under the current system, would potentially be(not including facets in this, since they are plot based, or special bonuses):

12 (attribute) + 12(dice) +6 (skill) +6(aptitude) =36

does the above difficulty scale make sense? can anyone boil down percentages of success based on skill level?

[Nogusielkt]

15= Extremely easy
18= Easy
24= Average
30= Tough
36= Difficult
37+=Impossible

I think the numbers sound too high.  You said attributes will be no higher than 6-8 for a while and skills no higher than 2-4.  Picking 7 and 3 (the middle numbers) means a +10 bonus to an average roll of 7 on 2d6 (which happens 1/6th of the time).  So, with those average numbers and an average roll... you'd land a 17, and wouldn't even accomplish an easy task.  Although a lot of tasks will be taken by the person with the highest chance to succeed, anyone who has low ratings in such areas would have almost no chance to succeed.  I'd lower average and below by 7 and tough & difficult by 4.  Possibly add in another level between average and tough if you will only be using these levels.  At a glance, anyhow.

[Bill Masek]

Chris,

An average person of average skill (attribute 6, skill 3) will have a +9.  To succeed in an extremely easy task they must roll 6+ on 2d6.  Their odds of failing this is 8/36 or 22.2%.  In order to succeed at an easy task they need to roll a 9+ where they have an 8/36 chance of success.  To succeed in an average task they need to roll a 15 which is impossible.

Your difficulty seems to high to me.  An average person of average skill should be able to accomplish average tasks.  They should have more then a 22% chance of compleating easy tasks.

If characters have an average attribute of 8 and skills of 4 their odds also pretty bleak.  They only have a 1/36 chance of succeeding at even an average task.

Everything else about this game has struck me as grand and heroic.  If so, I recommend keeping the numbers relatively low and have the difficulty grow in a linear fashion.

Extremely easy:  Don't bother rolling
Easy:  13
Average:  16
Tough:  19
Difficult:  22
Impossible:  25+  (Note that it will be impossible for a starting hero to succeed here, requiring them to roll a 13.)

For a grittier feel, use rough exponential growth.

Extremely easy:  10
Easy:  15
Average:  18
Tough:  22
Difficult:  28
Impossible:  31+

In heroic campaigns the heroes succeed at impossible tasks.  Don't be afraid of making it statical possible for the heroes to succeed at them.

That said, you want to leave room in your system for improvement.  If characters will start at att+skill = 12 but quickly raise to 22 then it they will always succeed at everything.  If this is the case put some distance between difficulty and impossible.   Consider 10 tiers of difficulty instead of 6, with the additional 4 between difficult and impossible.

Finally, in a game focused on creatures with god like power, are you sure you want to put so many game mechanics into basic, mortal skill rolls.  You could easily get away with attribute + 2d6 instead of attribute + skill + aptitude + facets each of which follow their own separate system of sub-rules.  This puts a lot of game mechanic focus on these skills and will take  it away from what it seems like you want your game about, the great power wielded by Dreamers and Sparks and the near cosmic conflicts they create.  While Mortal Heroes will use the system more then others, it reduces the potency of their archetype as well.  Alone they are supposed to be nothing compared to the Dreamers and Sparks, however, through their struggles they are empowered by those they inspire.  But if so many mechanics go into making them powerful, this is not the case.

The more mechanics your game places on a single area, the more important that area will be in your game.  By putting so much emphasis in mortal skills you are making them a very important part of your game.  If your game is about cosmic conflict consider removing or greatly lightening this system.  If you want a lot of the games focus to be about lesser day to day issues then you need to make it easier to succeed.

Best,
      Bill

[sayter]

excellent feedback. The initial difficulty table was constructed using the 6 or 12 rule, though your numebr crunching aid has certainly brought the statistics to light.

As for the skills mechanic aspect you mentioned, Bill, Dreamers powers will not enhance their skills, nor will Sparks. Their effects might buff attributes and grant abilities and whatnot, but will never actually influence skill. Thus, I still need a viable way to use the skills. All good points, though, that were made.

I'll adjust the table, and see how it works in playtesting...which draws ever closer. hurray :)

[Bill Masek]

Chris,

My comments regarding Dreamers was not meant to be about their ability to manipulate skills.  I would assume that to Dreamers, mortal skills are unimportant.  Who cares if you can cook?  Make a feast appear before you.  There is a river blocking your path?  Unmake it.  Need to motivate a group of bedraggled soldiers?  Just put the inspiration inside of them.  Along with the memories of a grand speech, if need be.

However, if you put a lot of game mechanical emphasis on your skill system, you make that a more intricate part of the game.  The more intricate each piece of your game is, the more important that piece is.  If you make everything to intricate your game becomes overly complex, not much fun and unfocused.  (To few mechanics can also lead to a lack of focus as well as repetitive game play.)

Right now you have a lot of mechanics for skill checks.  Skill checks will thus be a very important part of your game.  Do you really want this?

Best,
        Bill

[sayter]

I see skills as important, absolutely. While for a Dreamer they wont always be a necessity, they also wont be using their powers for every single thing they do, for the reasons we have already discussed. They need to avoid being noticed as much as possible, to avoid callign attention to them from their enemies.

The other classes will be using skills as well, and dreamers are not exempt from this. Of course I didnt see the mechanic as complex, really. Skill + Attribute + diceroll, and any modifiers isnt that much different from most RPGs on the market. The other bonuses that can be added to a given roll are almost always special cases which are story-based or occasion based. IE: A character with the Aptitude "Fast Runner" isnt going to add that to every roll using the Body attribue. Only to those which call on that actual aptitude. Facets are only called for plot/story events, which makes them a rarity in use. Plus, if a character DOES use a Facet, they cannot use it again for that session. A facet can only called once in a session, ever...unless of course the GM deems it appropriate for use in very rare circumstances.

I want a vibrant fantasy world, with larger than life heroes. Their skills is what sets them apart from the masses. On that note, I feel that they should be an important part of the system for all characters, not just the Mortals.

Also, there are no skill lists in my game. Players select only the skills the character would have special training in. Anything else uses a default roll (attribute + 2d6 + bonuses) to determine results.

A newbie character might have the following:

Attributes:
Body 6
Mind 3
Spirit 4
Self 5
Mettle 5
Essence 2
Integrity 6
Will 2

Facets: Soldier (Profession) +2, Vendetta (Hook) +2, Compulsion: "Hey! Not the Hair!" (Personal) -2/+2
*****Skills: Swordsmanship (General) +3, Specialist: Long Sword +1, Strategy +2, Athletics +2, *****

Thus, a given player doesnt need to worry about 30 individual skills. Instead , they will only have skills they actually need or have trained in on their sheets. This makes the skills they DO have important to them. Those which they do not have are absolutely unimportant. The characters might occasionally try things they arent skilled in, but the majority of skills will be specific to them.

[Bill Masek]

Chris,

Intresting.  So you are purposefully placing emphasis on the skill system in order to weaken the importance of the magic system in order to further the gods-in-hiding subtheme.  Cool.

Question:  Do stats do anything other then amp-up skills and provide HP?  You have the damage and point element in combat, but those could easily be covered by skills.  (Or perhaps you could call them attributes and include magic with them as well.)  If there is no other purpose then they seem a bit redundant and could easily be replaced with a more intresting mechanic.

That said, Facets strike me as cool, especially ones like "compulsion".  They make characters cool and unique and have the potential to drive the story.  I would like to see more rules regarding them.  Quality rules for these could greatly help the grand heroic feel of your game.

Best,
        Bill

[sayter]

I actually have a detailed doc file written up with character creation details which describes the individual types of facets, etc.

As for the stats serving other purposes; I am going to likely take an almost "exalted" approach to the way I handle this. In that, I mean that each character type will place emphasis on certain elements. Mortals have more skills, Dreamers have more powers which can alter their stats, and Sparks have a mixture of the two.

As for how to clear the redundancy issue, I am not sure exactly what you imply through this. Does a character , especially in a world such as mine, not need attributes? or were you referring to something else? (im also just wakin up so i may have misinterpreted your meaning hehe)

[Bill Masek]

Chris,

Every element in a system should serve a purpose.  Many games make the mistake of having two or more systems effectively serve the same purpose.  The most common example of this is attributes and skills.  Some systems, like DnD 3E for example, need and use both.  They serve very different purposes.  Others, like Vampire the Masquerade, have both but only need one.

In Vampire, everything you roll is based on your skill (or in some case your magic or will, but these have nothing to do with attributes).  The attributes system and skill system effectively serve the same purpose.  You could remove either the skills or the attributes (then double the value of the one that remains) and you would be left with a complete, fully functional resolution system.  All the two systems do is add an additional computation to most rolls and unneeded complexity.

You have not released all the rules for Realm.  I do not know what function each element plays with each other element.  However, very few games need both an attribute system and a skill system.  In general they are redundant and slow the game down.

Just look over your system as it stands now and consider what roll Attributes play that Skills and your other elements do not.  If they have their own unique roll separate from the rest of the game elements keep them.  Otherwise consider removing them.

Best,
       Bill

[sayter]

ahh, that describes it better. I wasnt quite getting the direction you were going with the initial point.

I ahvent release all the rules/mechs yet, because they arent yet all finished. But yes, attributes will serve a unique purpose, as will skills, in certain instances.