In Nomine Game...

[furashgf]

Has anyone experimented with an In Nomine - style Narritivist / lean game?  I looked at In Nomine and it's very sim., which is fine, but seems like you could have more fun with different mechanics.  It also comes with a well-defined White Wolf - like storyline and cosmology.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Gary,

Bluntly, why bother? The material in In Nomine is ultimately empty - see the tagline, "They are very much like us." In other words, you have three ways to go: (1) the ultimately comedic running-'round schemin' on each other with a lot of self-reference (imitating Good Omens), (2) imitating The Prophecy in full, and (3) superheroes and supervillains. I strongly suspect that most In Nomine play (if anyone actually plays it) tends toward #3 pretty soon.

If I were to take a Narrativist approach to this material, it would mean injecting Premise in full, and working very hard to cement it into the existing stuff. I know, I've tried. Granted, I simply may not be sufficiently imaginative, but In Nomine faces me with the same problem that Earthdawn or Warhammer does - in order to play it in a Narrativist fashion, both I and the players essentially have to rewrite the game, including Premise, and that means, basically, just writing a game from scratch.

But maybe, as I say, I'm just not seeing something I should. Can you articulate a Narrativist Premise that is either implicitly present in the material (which is the case in some otherwise Simulationist or Gamist games) or that could be added to the material without big band-aids showing?

Best,
Ron

[Laurel]

The Window has a vaguely In Nominae-esque Stage called  Forces Unseen which I think is a good example of the kind of thing you are looking for.  http://www.mimgames.com/stage/unseen.html

[furashgf]

Bluntly, why bother? The material in In Nomine is ultimately empty

Fair enough.  Drop the In Nomine suggestion and instead just start with the concept that we have angels and deamons "working it out."  The activities of humanity matter in some way to their plans.  As I write this out, the latter could be a Sorcerer-style "something you define."  For example, why humanity matters could be preparing for some Spawn-like end-of-time battle, or because metaphysically angelic/demonic activities must be reflected in the acts of mortals, small or large scale (I'm ripping that one off of a nifty X-Files episode).

Why bother with this.  I'll admit my natural bias towards games where the characters can wield great powers or skills (this is a personal preference).  But what premise(s) could you work in this type of game:

- how do you balance off good of many versus good of few;
- how do you balance off a good you think applies to someone, versus the good as they percieve it;
- how far do you go with faith when what you're being asked to do doesn't make sense;
- etc.

From a mechanical perspective, one thing the game could play with is character versus player knowledge.  Let's say that angelic/demonic understanding and perception cannot fit in the material world.  So you show up to do whatever you do, and your

Maybe it's not a good idea, but the last time I dropped the Vampire idea in the actual play area at least 3 functional games came out of it.  The forge is sort of like that wierd meat grinder play-doh machine that creates neat shapes given somewhat uninspiring input character is now missing big chunks of necessary information, but is still motivated to achieve a goal.  I could imagine the group working towards all sorts of great scenes where knowing what is really going on and contrasting that with the behavior of the characters could be a lot of fun.

[Daredevil]

All this reminds me (of my trashed and terminated Star Wars thread *ahem*) of a little idea that has been running around in my head regarding a game of demons set in Hell. The narrativist premise would be "it is better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven" (definately inspired by John Milton's "Paradise Lost").

I haven't given it much more thought than that yet, though, but I do feel the premise is a classic in itself.

[Mike Holmes]

I think that there is a great premise in In Nomine, one that could be explioted for Narrativist purpose. In a word, doubt. For either demon or angels, it's the continually ongoing problem. The angels have to worry that god's plan all makes sense, and that following it is the right thng to do. The demons have to worry that they've made the wrong decision in going against the plan.

Doubt too much and you change sides, which can really ruin your day.

This is represented in mechanics hidden amongst the mostly sim stuff, actually (dissonance, discord, essence, etc). Focus on that stuff, and I think you have a running start. I admit that the splattynesss can be distracting, but I think one can ovrcome that with a few rules tweaks, and/or with a strong social contract agreement to focus. FWIW, my opinion of In Nomine is much higher than most round here. I think it has huge potential.

Just how I see it,
Mike

[quozl]

Has anyone read the book To Reign in Hell by Steven Brust?  It is set in Heaven before the fall and is about the conflict between God and Satan.  He puts forward some very interesting ideas (although he twists things around so that Satan is the misunderstood good guy).  I think a game set in the book's setting could be quite interesting.

---Jon

[Daredevil]

Interestingly enough To Reign In Hell is based on Paradise Lost, being a sort of novellization of the latter (containing the characters and themes presented by Milton). Or so I am told anyway as I haven't read the book (I haven't been able to find it -- duh) myself.

[Ron Edwards]

Mike,

I've put more hours than I care to remember to address exactly that issue in regard to In Nomine, and I respectfully disagree with your assessment.

The problem is that the Premise is ultimately irrelevant to a protagonist's behavior and the consequences thereof. Doubt is all that remains, once one experiences Doubt.

OK, that would be interesting, even existential, if one removes Gods and Plans from the picture and faces The Void. However, something like In Nomine fails to do this. It keeps God and The Plan, and introduces Doubt, and so what can we do? Run around, hit one another on the head, and still Doubt, no matter what. I agree with your assessment of the mechanics, that they do "get something going," but that something is a tailspin - or more accurately, an endless eddy, a tailspin that doesn't change altitude.

Philosophically and narratively, separating God and The Plan is a sophomoric, meaningless proposition. Either God has a Plan that Makes Sense, or there's neither God (of this sort) nor Plan. Milton and C.S. Lewis, to take two good examples, do a fine job of demonstrating that the mythological Rebellion is ... well, stupid. Given "God" (of this sort), then "the Plan is Right" follows - in fact, the two concepts are synonymous. To doubt meaningfully, one must doubt the whole magillah, not just The Plan.

Please note that none of the above is a religiously-based argument. I am not a practicing religious person. These are intellectual issues that flatly Are or Are Not, as worked out by many a mind over many a century. The term "God" in the above material applies to any Entity of Meaning that you care to impose upon it. My beliefs or lack thereof are irrelevant to the discussion, and so are anyone else's.

To take a much more pop-culture example, the comic The Preacher does a nice job of raising all these issues ... and typically, punting. God turns out to be a big meanie, a kind of infantile Parent-Guy, or more accurately, not "God" at all. The same goes for the better (and shorter) comic Buddha on the Road by Colin Upton. In Nomine exists squarely in the same category, along with its direct influences, The Prophecy and Good Omens.

In other words, I think that all of the latest fad in Angels and Demons and Hell and All That, in pop culture, is basically empty - an expression of the adolescent urge to differentiate oneself from one's parents and their belief systems, and "God" in this context is simply code for parental authority in the real, here-and-now world. Any actual moral or intellectual content, the kind that powers a solid Premise in a story, is absent. Or rather, perhaps, that the only story that can result from addressing it is the same story, of personal maturation (either to Belief or to the Acceptable Void), over and over again.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

OK, that would be interesting, even existential, if one removes Gods and Plans from the picture and faces The Void. However, something like In Nomine fails to do this. It keeps God and The Plan, and introduces Doubt, and so what can we do?

I beg to differ. My reading of In Nomine is that god is notably absent. Oh, sure, the universe is still going, and "seems" to be pushing God's plan, but perhaps it's just coasting. Throughout there are hints of that nature. He doesn't attend the meetings (b which is my humorous way of saying that nobody ever encounters God personally in any "proovable" form). When God does act, it is mysteriously. Uriel is out of hand? God "recalls" Uriel. If that's what really happened. Oh, one archangel Yves is thought to know the mind of God, but he doesn't talk about it. Is he hiding something, perhaps? Loads of room for doubt in both God and his Plan.

There is a huge storyline (let's not debate metaplot here, yes In Nomine has it, yes it can interfere) about Khalid, the archangel of Faith, having a crisis of faith. A lot of this revolves around philosophical questions of religion, but it also has to do with loyalty and betrayal, and a lot of deep stuff.

Anyhow, that's the sort of stuff that In Nomine is capable of. I totally agree that it may be buried way too deep for some to use without starting over. I'm suggesting a huge drift here. But my point is that I, personally, find the topic compelling, and I think others would as well. If handled correctly.

So, being as this is the Design forum, perhaps the best rout would be to ask how we would design such a game from the ground up. If you see angels and demons as allegory for people who have strong stands on theological issues, then such a game becomes a forum to investigate these issues. Which I think fits the compelling label. Does in my book, anyhow.

Mike

[jburneko]

I'm affraid I have to disagree with Ron and go with Mike on this one.  I personally love In Nomine BECAUSE of it's Narrative potential.  I agree with Mike that the Narrative mechanics (Discord, Dissonance, Ressonance, Divine/Infernal Intervention) are burried under some fairly traditional Simulationist mechanics.  In Nomine, I think, can be played for some pretty sweet Dark Poety if one really tries.  What's the Premise?

When does faith in something outweigh practical applications of the greater goal?

Or something like that.  Here's how I would run In Nomine.  Players can be either Angels or Demons.  I think I'd disallow corporals because they don't work with the Premise, as I see it, or I'd allow them if the player was willing to take on a secondary commentary role.  Now, here's how I turn the White-Wolf splaty nature of In Nomine into Narrativist Premise.

So, every Angel/Demon belongs to a Choir/Band and works for a ArchAngel/Prince.  From these each Celestial has certain things they 'resonate' with.  The one example I use consistently when talking about In Nomine is the Seraphim.  Okay, the Seraphim are the guardians of truth.  They hate lying and can not abide a lie told in their presence.  What a great ideal.

Now, the Seraphim is sent down to earth to help deal with some very real human situation.  In Nomine lends itself to really big huge messy relationship maps and really screwed up backstories.  No ideal can survive contact with the morally grey nature of human behavior.  Sooner or later that Seraphim is going to be forced into some situation where telling the truth will do more harm than good.  What's an Angel to do?  Stick to his guns no matter what and hope he can deal with the aftermath or suck up the disonance and explain it to God latter.

I don't see why this focus on resonance, disonance and discord doesn't work?  But that's just me.

Jesse

[Ron Edwards]

H'mmm.

Well, that's two well-reasoned responses. OK, good enough, I'm convinced it's worth a try.

Given the new Indie Design policy, which I agree with in full, we now return to Gary (furashgf) - do you have a real (ie playable) game in mind, and if so, what's it like?

Best,
Ron

[furashgf]

Gasp.  I just read Clinton Nixon's policy (I still can't type that name with a straight face), I'm not sure what I was hoping to do meets the new forge policy (when did we get policies?).  Sorry for waisting everyone's time.

Gary