Taint and Mark

[Clay]

Mike,

There's nothing special about greyorm's supplement that allows the demon to be in control.  That comes out of the rules for binding.  If the demon has the victories, the demon is the boss.  That's why it's a good idea to keep the advice from The Case of Charles Dexter Ward in mind, "Do not call up that which ye cannot put down."

One of my players once tried to bind a cat passer.  Now, if you've ever tried to give orders to a cat, you can predict how this binding came out.  Six dice worth of complete victory, favoring the cat. So the cat gave him aid when she felt like it, and otherwise did as she pleased.

[Mike Holmes]

FWIW, I wasn't implying that there were any changes required, mechanically, just in perspective. In a more standard Sorcerer setting, I think of sorcerers as being the boss. A hgh number of successes makes it hard to control your "employee", but note that it never means that the player must have the character do what the Demon says. You always have autonomy. If the demon wants you to do something, it has to find a way to coerce or cajole you into doing it.

In the case of he Gods rules I would just make it pretty easy for the gods to coerce or cajole you. So the binding has different perspective, then. Since you cannot force this being to do something, it becomes you who have to cajole it into doing something. With a bonus for the binding roll representing how much the being likes you.

Like I said, if you think about the rules long enough you can bend them to make all sorts of settings work.

Mike

[David Howard]

witches were marked as Satan's, and nobody was binding Old Scratch-- I didn't see it as applicable to this game.

Who says he wasn't?

Being Bound doesn't necessarily mean YOU are running the show, just that you get use of nifty powers from the thing which you've summoned...sounds like a witch to me.

quote]

Sure... but not what I meant. From the rulebook, page 89 (don't you love me?): "a demon can only be Bound to one sorcerer at a time."

I never said the Binder is running the show; just that, in the Satanist concept, one demon was binding/being bound to many sorcerers. The rules of Sorcerer do not allow many people to independently Bind one huge honking mega-demon.

But that was probably just Pacting, anyway...

DBH

[greyorm]

"When's it ready?"

When I finish it!  Heh.

"The rules of Sorcerer do not allow many people to independently Bind"

Again, who says?

Yes, the rulebook does; but take a look at the supplements...all are major thinking outside the box of "the rules"...and, whoever said that the sorcerer was the one doing the Binding?

Yes, again the rules do...but that's just flavor text.

There's a minisupplement forthcoming (not mine) where the "secrecy" rule is thrown out the window -- sorcerers and demons are out in the open.
Demon Cops -- Ron's own minisupplement -- makes it clear that everyone knows about demons and imps and such, again, bending the rule of secrecy.

Suppose it is the demon Binding the sorcerer?

Or if you want to stay completley within the rules: In regards to medieval Satanists, the legend is that each witch gained a familiar, a demon in an animal's body...now check out the Cult of the Dark Lady in the main rules for where I'm going with this line of thought.

[David Howard]

"The rules of Sorcerer do not allow many people to independently Bind"

Again, who says?

Yes, the rulebook does; but take a look at the supplements...all are major thinking outside the box of "the rules"...and, whoever said that the sorcerer was the one doing the Binding?

Yes, again the rules do...but that's just flavor text.

Yes yes yes... fine. We can of course all do whatever we please. I know we all adapt and change and stretch the rules to fit what we want. Heck, we do that with all games. Look at poker. And Sorcerer is exceptionally adaptable. That's why I love it. You can do Grimm's fairy tales, the Scarlet Letter, Blade, Highlander, Neverwhere, Conan, etc.

But here's my issue with what you've suggested.

Sorcerer is a highly adaptable set of rules. But I don't think any set of rules is *infinitely* adaptable. At the risk of receiving superior snickers from some of you, I must assert that in every game there has to be some irreducible set of rules that is not altered or disposed of at whim. Sorcerer implies, and *not* just as "flavor", that the Binding relationship is one-to-one. The whole point of the game is the sorcerer-demon relationship, however "demon" is defined. I don't think you can stretch the Binding rules (not "flavor") to include *worship*. (Jesus has a Need to enter into the wine and bread, and  Desire to save souls? What's his Stamina score?)

The rules-- and remember, "system matters" is not just a slogan-- are specifically geared toward the sorcerer doing the binding. It's his choice, his resposibility. That's the whole point of Needs. The demon is a powerful force/entity/whatever that is in a dependent relationship to the sorcerer. Now, the twists and turns of that relationship are what make the game. You don't make a deal with the gods. You please them or displease them.

Or if you want to stay completley within the rules: In regards to medieval Satanists, the legend is that each witch gained a familiar, a demon in an animal's body...now check out the Cult of the Dark Lady in the main rules for where I'm going with this line of thought.

Well, I'm not going to debate the witchcraft legends with you, as it's not particularly germane to our discussion here. I might just say that familiars are not a universal feature of the folklore.

But yes, the "familiar" dodge does allow some sneaking around the idea of binding Satan. And yes, the Cult of the Dark Lady... fine, as I said. But nobody binds the Dark Lady, either. I have no problem with summoning and binding of cult demons; that stays within the framework of the game-- not the rules, but the *game*, the thing we are doing, the point of all this dice-rolling, the core experience that makes this Sorcerer rather than Call of Cthulhu or whatever.

The idea of Binding Strength being somehow the equivalent of "Teenagers from Outer Space"'s Relationship With Parents stat... too indescribably horrible.

Dave

[Clay]

Sorcerer implies, and *not* just as "flavor", that the Binding relationship is one-to-one. The whole point of the game is the sorcerer-demon relationship, however "demon" is defined.

Since we're dealing with a Christian interpretation of demons and sorcery, Greyorm's model works pretty well. One of the core tenets of the faith is that the supreme high pubha (is that thunder I hear?) has three aspects, all of which are unique and separate individuals, and yet still part of the whole. Variant Christian sects, such as Christian Scientists, have no trouble with the concept that this very same supreme diety is manifest in each and every human on the planet.

Given this multifaceted approach to the divine within this belief system, Greyorm's approach is well within the rules provided by Sorcerer. It's viewing each demon as entirely separate and unrelated that's outside of the Christian belief framework.  That view looks a lot more like the works of Lovecraft, where the evil beasties are just alien life forms set on mastering the universe.