Trying to elicit Flags in game prep, an actual attempt

[Ron Edwards]

Found it! On making the same character over and over

Classic Czege insight.

Best,
Ron

[Ron Edwards]

Damn it. I am having a lot of trouble posting today.

Precede the above post with this:

Hi John,

That second point of yours makes me worry a little.

Here are some older threads which address the main issue pretty well.

Character generation going on and on and on
Backstory vs. strong character creation
Using character backstory to assist with coherent play
Character back story

I'm also hunting for a key thread of Paul's which was called "On making the same character over and over," but didn't find it quickly. If anyone can post that link, thanks.

John, all this goes back to one of my most ancient points, which is the dropping rich and meaty characters into a rich and meaty setting is not the strongest starting point for play. I also think the isolated quality of how your players are generating back-stories is troublesome.

This is actually a real flaw in Everway's design, as I see it - play as described in the text never seems to have anything to do with the fanfic-heavy characters as characters. Your players, by using that text as a guide, may be walking right into its cruellest inadequacy.

Best,
Ron

[Supplanter]

   I'm going to email Joseph and talk to him about the fact that the other players (rather than the other characters) having full knowledge of his character can only improve the game, since they will be able to direct some of their play towards his character's issues, and help him get what he wants for his character's story into actual play.  Does that sound about right?

   As for the lengthy background, alarm bells went off immediately when I read Zach's.  It's very well written, but includes his character piloting a ship through a dangerous asteroid field, a scene which he had mentioned in the game prep discussion as a cool thing his character might do.  I immediately thought or Ralph's RPGNet rant on the subject of character backgrounds, and am worried that it might be an indicator of abused player syndrome.  The idea is that lots of people are so used to never getting to see their characters protagonized, or getting the cool scenes that they want into actual play, that they feel compelled to put them into character background fiction as a way of guaranteeing that they will get the things they want out of the game.  I'll email all three of the players about this, making sure that I applaud their commitment and enthusiasm, but trying to let them know that I am actually listening to them when they say what they want their characters and the game to be about, and will do my best to focus on those things.  Do y'all think that approach is necessary, and will it work?

It can't hurt to mention these things, IMHO.

In the case of Zach, maybe the piloting scene serves in his mind (or can be made to serve) almost like a Line of Experience from MURPG or as a very wordy Trait from OTE or DITV. IOW, a way to get down on the character sheet that "I've done this before" so he can point to proven competence when it comes up in play. I've played a lot of low-mech systems and some variant of "Last time we tried this it worked" is a pretty common player argument toward getting a favorable GM ruling.

Or it could be nothing more than AGS. But give him a cool piloting scene in play, if possible an interesting variation on the one in the background. Pre-play discussion is great and essential, but it's when what we're talking about actually happens that the concepts sink in.

With introducing people to OOC knowledge and *using* it, I like to phrase it as, "Using OOC knowledge is bad if it constitutes 'cheating,' but 'cheating' in one game isn't the same as 'cheating' in another game. In this game, cheating would be using OOC knowledge to ruin another PC's story. Using OOC knowledge to *improve* another PC's story is just playing." Or some better way of stating your own take on the concept.

Best,


Jim

[David Chunn]

Hi, John.

I think Joseph knows he should let the other players in on the character secrets but isn't sure due to standard gaming social contracts. (I've never really understood the keeping secrets thing.)

As for Zach: I've read Ralph's rant, and I think you and I have discussed this before. In some cases I agree. Probably most cases. But in this particular case, I don't see a problem. It may be abused gamer syndrom, or it may just be excitement. (It may also be a way of defining his character, "See, he really can do this sort of thing.")

I think you should play off what he's written and escalate. Sure, that was a cool thing his character did flying through the asteroid belt before, but you can set up an in-game sequence that's cooler than that. More difficult, more dangerous, and rife with narrative meaning. I would think of the piloting episode in the character background as a Flag that you should address. Make him prove it. If you can, drop some bangs that somehow connect back to that incident.

If it is abused gamer syndrome, I still think that's the best way to handle it. Otherwise, you might freak him out by taking it away from him. He might start worrying that he's not going to get anything he wants in the game or in backstory.

Problematic backstory for me is not when it records cool incidents but when it solves sticky character issues. Open issues are more important than expected events. You can always repeat events in fresh ways.

Of course, it really all depends on how much he's written and what it all concerns. You might need to convince him to whiddle it down to the essentials.

You definitely need to get them to read each others backgrounds and discuss them. Isolated elaboration is ok in my experience as long as everyone was on the same page to begin. Of course, I mostly play with people I've known for a decade now so it's not that difficult for us to get in-synch.

[johnmarron]

Ron,
  Thanks for the links.  I've read most of them a while back, but a re-reading is certainly in order.  When you say "ancient points", are you referring ot your detailed character/sketchy setting vs. sketchy character/detailed setting ideas?  Your cautions are noted.  Given that I've never played with these guys before and don't know any of them well, I think I might be better off just doing a little more discussion during actual (mechanical) character generation next time we meet and seeing how things shape up in play.  I agree that the fact that they have gone off and done more character generation in isolation is troubling, but I hope we developed solid enough concepts in our group discussion that we end up with characters that will be fun to play and interesting enough to everyone that their stories will be engaging.
  This game wil be a nice learning experience for me in trying to introduce some of the techniques and ideas I've picked up here to some fairly traditional but semingly open-minded gamers.

John