[Burning Wheel] stuck with new campaign

[Jasper the Mimbo]

Guess that throws my thoughts out the window. Something to keep in mind for later, maybe.

Four sessions without actual play... That would drive me crazy.

[ffilz]

Yep, it's been driving me crazy. I feel really bad. Partly I'm frustrated at the system since it feels like it doesn't have enough help (which it also sounds like is now recognized). But I also realize I really dropped the ball in not pushing harder. But this is all a new style of gaming to me, and all I've got under my belt so far is 3 sessions of Dogs in the Vinyard (one chargen with another GM, one play with that GM, one chargen+play with me as GM).

But it does get me thinking about when I started with Basic D&D. I watched my friends play Friday evening. I stayed up all night absorbing the rules. We played through several sets of characters on Saturday (rolling up, and playing until they reached 4th level where the Basic rules no longer handled them). Somehow RPGs need to re-capture this ability to do chargen and go (with basically no GM prep - for that first day of play, I used the Dungeon Geomorphs and Monster and Treasure Assortments that came with the basic set). Though I admit that there is something to be said for somewhat more complex characters, but even then, it should be feasible to do chargen one session and launch into play the 2nd session (without more than an evening of prep on the part of the GM). I think Dogs fits that relaxed standard (and I think it might still fit that standard for folks who have never played an RPG - though I did bring a lot of reading about Dogs to the table with me, and when I GMed, I took into account what I observed from my first session of play). For someone who has never played the game before, Burning Wheel clearly doesn't.

Frank

[Ron Edwards]

Uh, no, Frank. I don't agree.

Although the buy-in or prep time for BW is high, that's tangential to the real point at issue in this thread.

The point is whether you, personally, have a blazing drive to make "story now" when engaged in role-playing. This is analogous to a person's drive to win (or to avoid losing) while playing in a sports context, whether role-playing or not.

If you have such a drive, or are at least cultivating it, then games like Sorcerer, The Riddle of Steel, and Burning Wheel are very similar - certain features and tactical options all work together in a way that "blossoms" during moments of high-stress conflict for the characters. This blossoming feeds right into a variety of mechanics that range from providing more options to radically altering or even killing the character.

Dogs in the Vineyard is more like HeroQuest, in which a fairly straightforward combination of explicit options (abilities, etc) on one's sheet can be relied upon, and in which the conflicts are fairly easy to present to the characters in a structured way. These games also reward the urge for Story Now, but in a way that lets you coast if you have to or if you're a little stuck on how it's all supposed to work.

No coasting in Burning Wheel. Unless you as GM are providing context and adversity, unless the players are providing drives and goals, then nothing happens, and unless the real point is what emerges from that, then nothing happens. The game relies on your drive to see what comes next, and how it will turn out, not on providing you a step-by-step for what to do next.

Bluntly, the players seem to have done their job along those lines. You apparently haven't. Now - I do not care one bit about all your talk of "apologizing" and "feeling bad." You might re-read my little speech I wrote; it does not include an apology, even if you read one into it. This isn't about blame or taking the rap. It's about what you have to have inside in order to play this game.

I'll tell you what I see when I look over all those threads you linked ... I see someone who wants to walk, and needs his hand held a little. Fine. You got your hand held. But did you even try to walk? No! It's like holding a kid's hand when the kid goes all limp and sack-like; you've seen that, right? No walking.

So, again bluntly, what's the point of holding your hand any longer? I haven't seen any walking, yet. I'm about ready to call bullshit on your cry for help, because I haven't seen you do anything with the help yet. Again, I'm not interested in your apologies. Can we see an end to all this self-immolating talk about being sorry? As well as this "blame the game" riff you seem to be developing?

If you want, apply the rules outlined so well in Conspiracy of Shadows. Prep for the next session with a good eye toward the characters. Actually play. If, at that point, you need help or advice again, I'm your man (as are the others who've posted). But not until then.

Best, Ron

[Jasper the Mimbo]

While Ron's reply was a little harsh, he's pretty well on point. Your friends (the players) have entrusted you with the task of creating everything for the story, a fairly monumental task, but if you've been GMing for a while you're up to it. So here's my bit of hand holding that is a bit more specific than Ron's.

1. Every game needs a theme, a direction to explore. You chose "Conspiracy" arguably one of the most difficult types of story to tell. You need many complex characters with complex motivations, and a clearly envisioned and established world for them to operate in. You may have bitten off more than you can chew. No harm in admitting it and doing something you are more comfortable with. The other option is to step to the plate and swing as hard as you can. It will take some serious prep time to write out your power players, but once you do, once you understand who they are and how they react and what they want, the game will write itself. You will never have to do any prep work ever again. Trust me, I've done it.

2. You, as the GM are responsible for being familiar and comfortable with the system. It's new to you, sure. The style of play isn't what you are used to, sure. Again, you can go back to something you are comfortable with, or you can put in the extra mile to try something new. Read the books Cover to cover. I've read them all, they are (as role-playing books go) amazingly well written. Even fun to read in many places. Get comfortable with the rules all the way through before your next session. Talk to Luke (the author) or Thor (Our other resident Burning Wheel guru.) if you have any questions at all. They will help you, and maybe by talking with them you will better grasp how the flow of this particular game works.

3. Don't be afraid to strong arm your players into clearly establishing their characters goals. Players love to come up with vague motivations. Less work for them. Don't let them. They will thank you for it later.

That's it. Walk by yourself (as Ron would put it.)

[ffilz]

Well, I think I think I've got things rolling now. I started off by admitting that the conspiracy theme was way out of my comfort zone, and we've agreed to change directions. I should not have agreed to the conspiracy theme in the first place if it was so far out of my comfort zone.

What we're going with now is a more simple theme of doom from an impending Orc invasion. We've retained most of what has been established so far (the elves are aloof and will need convincing to join forces, so will the dwarves, the roden will need to be won over or contained lest the roden society go rampant in the disorder). And if a little bit of conspiracy sneaks in, well that's fine.

On a thought of having the NPC adversaries too far above the PCs, we've toned down the general to a captain (so it should be a 5 lifepath character - someone the 4 lifepath soldier can hope to gain in power against to defeat). Using Thor's latest belief guidelines, we've refined the beliefs (some PCs currently only have 1 or 2 beliefs, but that was at least enough to drive some play today).

And then we got some play in. Just bare bones NPCs, but at least something the players could start to exercise the system with. We did some circles tests, a nice little investigation by the roden (and boy, let it ride made that so much easier, and really worth spending artha for). The soldier got into a duel of wits with and elven protector (building on one of last weeks events where he failed to prevent a small band of orcs from burning some trees in the forest). He's now fixed up for a confrontation with the captain. Artha got awarded, players recorded some skill checks towards advancement.

And now I have a better framework to prep against. I've got some specific NPCs to prep. And the prep I had done so far for the conspiracy is not wasted.

The biggest issue right now is how to tie the elf into things. Once we start seeing some real fights, the elf will have some nice spell songs to sing, and even knows which end of the sword to stick in the bad guys. The elf did succeed at a circles test at least. She also needs the most work with beliefs.

So thanks for the help, and the kicks in the pants.

Frank

[cmnash]

Hi Frank,  I'm looking at running Burning Wheel myself so have read this thread with interest and hope to learn from it as well - so your suffering has not been in vain!

Please keep us posted on how it goes, whether here or at the BW forums as I want to find out hit progresses.

Cheers, Colin

[Jasper the Mimbo]

glad we could help. The point is to have fun. I figure, if you're having fun, you're doing it right. If you aren't than you're not. Post a new thread here once the story gets rolling, i'm interested in seeing how it turns out.

[drozdal]

The biggest issue right now is how to tie the elf into things. [...] She also needs the most work with beliefs.

Hey Frank

Elf player should tie in perfectly, she just needs more focused, story/goal/player oriented beliefs (beliefs no. 1 and 2 are simply to broad).