Super Heroes Game, divine touch or not?

[jeremycoatney]

Hello,
     I am currently creating a game for super hero setting adventures and campaigns and I was wondering: should I include characters who have their powers granted by dieties? I am including magic, supernatural, psionic, training, technology, pseudo science, and typical super human(wingless flight, X-ray vision) based powers, but I'm not sure what people would think of super heroes who have their powers granted by a diety of some sort in an RPG.
     For the record supernatural abilities are magic based powers which do not take the form of items or spells, which are typically some sort of genetic or inherited trait a character has. Just thought I'd clarifiy.

[TonyLB]

And what about characters who have their powers because they are deities?

Wait ... why is this even a question?  Are you worried that you're going to offend some religious stick-in-the-mud who's never heard of (oh, just to pick a name out of a hat) THOR?  Or is there some reason that you think your work will benefit creatively from avoiding the question?

[David "Czar Fnord" Artman]

Thor is a god (or is he...?). Odin Allfather gave him his powers (or is he pretending to be a god...?). I'd say there's at least one major precedent for deific super powers. ;-)

Heck, have you considered letting players simply BE gods, if that's their backstory? What flavor of supers are we talking about, here?

Finally (and MOST importantly) why does it matter what the origin of a power is? Surely it doesn't have more than a categorizational relevance (i.e. semantics)... or are you going for a game where the power type has mechanical hooks into the game system? If so, I'd be curious to learn why, given the way many supers games focus on effect, not cause (i.e. a power's origins are little more than special effect justifications... and special effects are merely color).

David

[jeremycoatney]

And what about characters who have their powers because they are deities?

Wait ... why is this even a question? Are you worried that you're going to offend some religious stick-in-the-mud who's never heard of (oh, just to pick a name out of a hat) THOR? Or is there some reason that you think your work will benefit creatively from avoiding the question?

     No I'm not worried about offending some person's religious beliefs with this. I figure that it is a work of fantasy and should be taken as such. If someone starts getting upset about the way I portrayed something on moral or religious grounds, they are way too sensitive in my opinion and shouldn't be an RPG in the first place. No offense, but really people.
    Yes I know about Thor, and other such character's from popular comic book series, I'm just wondering if people think they would play them if they were offered, or if as GMs they would want characters to play them.
    To further clarify the issue, in my system a person's ability to wield the power of the deity that chose them is mostly dependant on their Faith in that deity, followed by how closely they obey their deity's rules, and then by how much experience they have wielding that power (their level.) These powers are more open ended in some cases, performing miracles or other magic-like effects, or they are more focused, super-human speed/strength granted by divine power. This is what I was thinking of.
    A character who WAS a god would a good example of a different thing altogether. Deities in my games are generally not playable. However, lesser gods or demi-gods who have been, for whatever reason, constricted to our plane of existence, or bound to a mortal host shell would exhibit limitations of that shell, as well as the limitations imposed on their powers when they were sent to their current state of being. I'd have to come up with a specific system for that, but I'm sure I can think of something if I decide to include them.

[jeremycoatney]

Finally (and MOST importantly) why does it matter what the origin of a power is? Surely it doesn't have more than a categorizational relevance (i.e. semantics)... or are you going for a game where the power type has mechanical hooks into the game system? If so, I'd be curious to learn why, given the way many supers games focus on effect, not cause (i.e. a power's origins are little more than special effect justifications... and special effects are merely color).

     Good question. Each type of super power has different types of effects associated with it, some good some bad. For instance psionic powers are capable of having feedback from a target to the user, draining them or hurting them in the process if they over do an effect, but they are more flexible because they are based in what the character has learned to do with their powers, whereas typical super powered abilities are focused and fixed effects in most cases, but they cannot suffer from feedback, they eithier work flawlessly or not at all.
      So, yes, it's a mechanics thing. In the case of a character with a deity's backing they might follow the deity of Death/Destruction,. allowing them to unleash furious destruction in their wake, but suddenly find themselves in a fix if they need to heal themselves or fix something because it is in direct opposition with the deity's nature to allow such a thing to be granted by its power. Also, if you failed to observe certain important rites associated with that deity you might lose its favor, rendering you temporarily, or permanently powerless.

[David "Czar Fnord" Artman]

Well, given that you seem to have a system hook in mind for all of your power categories, then I'd say, "Sure, do it if you want that type of system hook, BUT...".

Basically, you have these categories that are sort of like "meta-effects" of the powers under them. I.E. All Divine Powers require X, Y, and Z but can be powered up beyond their nominal ratings; meanwhile, all Psionic Powers have risks R, S, and T but can be very flexible; etc. That leads me to a follow-up question or redirect:

Why aren't those meta-effects just power advantages and limitations that a player can mix or match to suit their concept? Then, Divine Powers become merely any power with the meta-effects "Themed" (their effects must suit the "god's" bailiwick, or some other Theme like "Nature"), "Requires Faith Test," and "Scalable". Psionic Powers are any powers with the meta-effects "Variable Use/Flexible" and "Requires Feedback Test".

Obviously, I'd have to know your system better to make a serious stab at these meta-effects--these "Power Tuning Options"--but I think this is sufficient to make the point. Basically, I have (over the decades) become very class-averse, and any system which seems to run different rules for different situations or which seems to combine meta-effects into core effect definitions just seem to restrict creativity to get at a tightly defined game world/situation/setting. While, yes, here at the Forge you will get many adherents that will claim that's the "right" way to build a system, I do not believe it best suits supers, in particular, because that genre seems to be most fun when odd backstories and interesting power effect combinations can be made. Thus, I would not (personally) find a game that says "all powers of type X must have these limitations and advantages" very conducive to supers play.

As an aside, have you ever read the rules for HERO/Champions? Recent threads here aside, I consider it one of the best examples of how to handle both universal systems and, specifically, supers systems (which one might argue are a subset of universal, particularly given the range of super styles/genres out there in the comics/movies).

HTH;
David

[dindenver]

Hi!
  I just want to re-iterate what David said, de-couple the game effect and the power source. Does it matter if the damage comes from fire, your mind or god? Probbly not.

  If your goal is to make a genreic supers game, throw it in, why not? But I would recommend making a setting, including it in the main book and then only include the stuff that matches your setting. I mean, if you want Generic, there is a bajillion games out there, but you can make a compelling setting and really draw players to your game, you know?

  Good luck man!

[Ken]

I think that if YOU believe it needs to be included (and are prepared to work out the mechanics for your game) then you should add to your rules. I think there are more than enough examples in the comics to support that type of character (even if its a villain) and it will add some more depth to your class-based system (which strikes me as the reason for your question in the first place).

As far as how many players will use that option? I don't know. That type of origin or power source is pretty rare in the comics, so its reasonable to believe it would be just as rare in a open super hero campaign setting. The beauty of adding is that its there; your rules can handle one more character option. The players may never use, but at least they have the option. Also, you can always get rid of  it if your not happy with the way it works out.

Go for it!!!

Ken

[jeremycoatney]

    "As an aside, have you ever read the rules for HERO/Champions? Recent threads here aside, I consider it one of the best examples of how to handle both universal systems and, specifically, supers systems (which one might argue are a subset of universal, particularly given the range of super styles/genres out there in the comics/movies)."
     I don't think that I have ever read the rules for that system, although I will check it out.
     Personally, I think it does matter from time to time where a specifc power comes from. For instance if a scientist designs a device whihch disables psionic fields, the indirect source of psionic effects? While any psychics that walk within the field would be rendered powerless, people with similar powers, such as mutant mind control, or supernatural powers would be 100% uneffected. While it would be simple to create some kind of sub-catagory which detemine such things, many GMs I have talked to in person have expressed frustration with trying to keep track of that kind of information, while they don't mind blanket effect or ineffect rules which relate to certain types of powers.
     Perhaps this happens too rarely for people to think it's worth it, perhaps not. The thing is, in my opinion, if it's installed you can use it to more easily group the people and powers or effects you wish to influence (or detect even) together so that you can deal with it without having to look at each individual power on each character sheet to see what's got which little note next to it which has very little to do with the game in most other cases. Also, I'd have to try and decide whether or not to assign worth, or what kind of worth to assign to the powers.
     Of course, I'm open to objection to this. It's not hard at all to come up with a very short list of different types of general effects and a huge list of attributes that can be assigned to them. Well, at least considering that I have a list of super powers and things already made up(just the first draft.)

[flammifer]

How about something on the lines of - *All* powers are granted by God or Satan, but most people (including the supers) thinks it's "just" weird mutations and mad scientists tinkering in God's domain and whatnot. Then the characters slowly discover that they are living in the end of times as described in the Book of Revelations.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Well, if you haven't checked out Champions, then you probably don't know where we are coming from.
  Imagine two "generic" powers, Blast and Shield. All the game knows about Blast is that it does Damage, when a player buys Blast for their Char, they can decide (perhaps mandatorily) if it is Fire, Ice, Kinetic, Divine, Unholy, Psionic, etc. Then when the player buys Shield for their char, they decide what it blocks (Maybe the base cost blocks everything, but you can buy it more cheaply if it only blocks Pionics for instance).
  In this way you only have to design and update one attack, but that one rule represents any possible ranged attacks.
  But the "type" of attack does matter. Don't misunderstand us. Almost every comic has the 'I can block fire, but not ice' paradox as part of the story. There is no conceivable reason not to include it in your game. But it might be more advantageous to you and your players to seperate the cause and effect. Sort of reduce the learning curve by having one or two range attack rules (beam vs. cone for instance) and have a rule for elements (fire vs. ice for instance) and the trick is to combine them in interesting ways.
  Just an idea.

[David "Czar Fnord" Artman]

Perhaps this happens too rarely for people to think it's worth it, perhaps not. The thing is, in my opinion, if it's installed you can use it to more easily group the people and powers or effects you wish to influence (or detect even) together so that you can deal with it without having to look at each individual power on each character sheet to see what's got which little note next to it which has very little to do with the game in most other cases.

That point sounds a little like begging the question. You want supersets of power types so that you don't have to remain aware of individual powers; yet you allow players to pick and choose powers from different supersets? Setting aside the obvious redirect of "well, that's the GMs job: be aware of all characters' points of contact into situations," I don't see any difference. My (our, the Champions) way, GMs have to note disadvantages or limitations that can impact/be impacted by specific situations; your way, GMs have to note powers that can impact/be impacted by specific situations. The only "benefit" to GMs your way is this proscribed one-to-one correlation between each power and the effects of its superset: one-to-one correspondences are certainly easier to memorize.

But I argued for creative flexability; in my opinion, that should trump ease of memorization of points of contact.

Also, I'd have to try and decide whether or not to assign worth, or what kind of worth to assign to the powers.

Yep, it's a pain. Cost balancing a flexible system IS tricky; it's a TON easier to write up a laundry list of spells, powers, and widgets and flat cost them all. Easy, but not particularly enabling. And there's a LOT of "easy to play, easier to write" rules out there already....

Just 2¢ more;
David

[jeremycoatney]

How about something on the lines of - *All* powers are granted by God or Satan, but most people (including the supers) thinks it's "just" weird mutations and mad scientists tinkering in God's domain and whatnot. Then the characters slowly discover that they are living in the end of times as described in the Book of Revelations.

     Well, there are few things about that. Mostly, it's too specific. The system is not setup for a particular setting, therefore, telling people that there is a God and there is a Satan, presumably the popular culture version, and not the traditional spy of God version (note: I'm not a follower of the religion, I've only studied it, I could have this wrong.) Also, while I can see this working out, I don't think it would really be a "super heroes" book anymore. It's a very creative idea for setting up a light versus dark Endtime War.
     Don't get me wrong, this would likely make a wonderful RPG system/game, however not the type I'm aiming for... although it wouldn't make a bad setting expansion...

Perhaps this happens too rarely for people to think it's worth it, perhaps not. The thing is, in my opinion, if it's installed you can use it to more easily group the people and powers or effects you wish to influence (or detect even) together so that you can deal with it without having to look at each individual power on each character sheet to see what's got which little note next to it which has very little to do with the game in most other cases.

That point sounds a little like begging the question. You want supersets of power types so that you don't have to remain aware of individual powers; yet you allow players to pick and choose powers from different supersets? Setting aside the obvious redirect of "well, that's the GMs job: be aware of all characters' points of contact into situations," I don't see any difference. My (our, the Champions) way, GMs have to note disadvantages or limitations that can impact/be impacted by specific situations; your way, GMs have to note powers that can impact/be impacted by specific situations. The only "benefit" to GMs your way is this proscribed one-to-one correlation between each power and the effects of its superset: one-to-one correspondences are certainly easier to memorize.

But I argued for creative flexability; in my opinion, that should trump ease of memorization of points of contact.

Also, I'd have to try and decide whether or not to assign worth, or what kind of worth to assign to the powers.

Yep, it's a pain. Cost balancing a flexible system IS tricky; it's a TON easier to write up a laundry list of spells, powers, and widgets and flat cost them all. Easy, but not particularly enabling. And there's a LOT of "easy to play, easier to write" rules out there already....

Just 2¢ more;
David

     Again very good point, but I think it's my own fault for being unclear here. Powers in this game are NOT entirely fixed. Some abilities, such as Invulnerability are less flexible than others, but in addition to having an Invulernability Level for the power, you can also reduce or increase the cost of the power by mutating the basic for with options, such as Ineffective X, Always on, Solar Powered (think superman/birdman), and these options often have different levels to them as well.
     Essentially the game has both fixed and flexible powers, but they are additionally placed in supersets which have blanket mechanics to serve as the basis for all the powers within them. It's complicated, but it isn't quite done yet, which is why I haven't posted any clear examples of one thing or another. Also, this is the reason I am most interested in developement info too.
     I will definitely look into a more of a building block system though seeming as it is felt the old plug and play systems permiate the market. In reality I have only ever played one Super Heroes RPG, Heroes Unlimited, which I didn't like all that much. Not that it was bad exactly, it just seemed to need a lot of changes, such as the fact Invulnerability in that made you nearly invincible.

Hi!
Well, if you haven't checked out Champions, then you probably don't know where we are coming from.
Imagine two "generic" powers, Blast and Shield. All the game knows about Blast is that it does Damage, when a player buys Blast for their Char, they can decide (perhaps mandatorily) if it is Fire, Ice, Kinetic, Divine, Unholy, Psionic, etc. Then when the player buys Shield for their char, they decide what it blocks (Maybe the base cost blocks everything, but you can buy it more cheaply if it only blocks Pionics for instance).
In this way you only have to design and update one attack, but that one rule represents any possible ranged attacks.
But the "type" of attack does matter. Don't misunderstand us. Almost every comic has the 'I can block fire, but not ice' paradox as part of the story. There is no conceivable reason not to include it in your game. But it might be more advantageous to you and your players to seperate the cause and effect. Sort of reduce the learning curve by having one or two range attack rules (beam vs. cone for instance) and have a rule for elements (fire vs. ice for instance) and the trick is to combine them in interesting ways.
Just an idea.

     Champions really sounds interesting, I think really if I am understanding everyone correctly my system stopped somewhere in between Champions and Heroes Unlimited. It has more fixed and structured systems than Heroes, but is not as free and flexible as Champions by the sound of it.

[David "Czar Fnord" Artman]

Champions really sounds interesting, I think really if I am understanding everyone correctly my system stopped somewhere in between Champions and Heroes Unlimited. It has more fixed and structured systems than Heroes, but is not as free and flexible as Champions by the sound of it.

You got it, in a nutshell.

And let me tell you: once you've had Champions, you never go back! 8-p

Sounds like you know the game you want to make... so I'll stop trying to get you to remake Champions as a streamlined system. ;-)

Go for it!
David