[Tunnels & Trolls] Half-elves are poncy nancy-boys

[Jeff Klein]

It's in the Adventure Points chapter (quoted it in the Gamism essay, by the way). I *think* that's section 1.9, but I do know it's in the first chapter.

And in 4th, it's the last paragraph on page 9:

Most of the people in Phoenix current playing this game have from three to fifteen characters in their stable.  Thus, if one or two of them get killed on any particular expedition, they are not too heartbroken, and are able to carry on with hardly a pause.

[Bankuei]

Hi Ron,

Whatever House-rules-ed bastardized copy of text I managed to snag off the net has the SR rules as providing AP = to the roll X SR level.  I'm not sure if this works for you, but it makes me(as a player, and as a GM) eager to see a lot more Saving Rolls fly about, and it makes non-combat guys a little more functional.

Chris

[efindel]

Something seems horribly wrong with our discussion of Saving Roll mechanics.

It doesn't matter what level the Saving Roll is: you still only ever roll 2d6. And the APs you get are always equal to the value you roll. The dice do explode (on doubles, add and re-roll), but the level of the SR is totally irrelevant.

Whatever House-rules-ed bastardized copy of text I managed to snag off the net has the SR rules as providing AP = to the roll X SR level. I'm not sure if this works for you, but it makes me(as a player, and as a GM) eager to see a lot more Saving Rolls fly about, and it makes non-combat guys a little more functional.

My copy of 5th edition T&T also says that AP for SRs are equal to the roll times the SR level (Corgi "Pocket" edition, section 1.9, page 50), so that's what I've been going on as well.

--Travis

[rafial]

My copy of 5th edition T&T also says that AP for SRs are equal to the roll times the SR level (Corgi "Pocket" edition, section 1.9, page 50), so that's what I've been going on as well.

I can confirm for the Blade edition as well, section 1.9, bottom of the second page, first column.  It's even in italics...

[Ron Edwards]

Ooooops. Y'all are right. I just read that section of rules in my 5th edition again.

Which makes Travis' point about the scaling of the rolls make more sense.

Which also means that my players have been shorted a fair number of points, especially lately since the rolls got a bit harder in the last couple of sessions.

Which means I'm feeling sort of dumb, because I only read those rules about eighty times ...

Best,
Ron

[ejh]

In T&T, you also get EPs based on what levels you visited

I like the term 'APs'.

You're making that sound a lot more "hard and fast/written in stone" than it is in the rules, there, Ron.

Section 1.9:

DARING

Game Masters should evaluate the difficulty and danger of their tunnel complexes, wilderness areas, cities, etc. and award EPs accordingly to those player-characters who survive a session.  A general guideline to this is to award 100 points for each level of dungeon or difficulty.  

(.....)

Although most games are likely to take place underground where such assessment of level is easy, the same principle applies to surface challenges.  However, only the gamemaster can determine how much daring it requires to penetrate his haunted forest, withered heath, or the City of Terrors.

Under this category there are experience points for doing something unusual, even foolhardy.  If a character walks into a dragon's lair to suggest a riddling contest for safe passage through the room, he should be given some small reward for trying it (...) Actions coming into this category tend to be those which, if they fail, are very likely to kill the character outright -- there should always be the element of a wild gamble if the character involved is to receive points for the action.

The "points for levels of dungeon" thing is only if you happen to be playing in a stereotypical dungeon with a stereotypical progression of levels.

[ejh]

Which means I'm feeling sort of dumb, because I only read those rules about eighty times ...  

Dude, I lived Tunnels & Trolls for about a decade of my life.  A formative one too -- I lived and breathed Tunnels & Trolls from grade school on through high school and into college.

Of course, my Tunnels & Trolls play was a lot like my high school love life -- largely solo adventures.  But you got any rules questions, you run 'em by me.  :)

And if you even feel a need to settle a duel of honor with me, I'm choosing Tunnels & Trolls Rules Trivia at 50 paces.

Quick, what's the dice + adds for a broadsword?  Falchion?  Scramasax? African Throwing Knife?  What's the deal with a Kris?  How many hits does leather armor stop?  What's the strength cost for a Take That You Fiend?  Hell, what's the complete first level spells list?  What's up with the fact that in Sorcerer Solitaire it talks about letting you cast a Hidey Hole even though only first level wizards are allowed to play it? (they seem to have changed Hidey Hole to a higher level spell between rules editions.)

Strength multiplier for Trollish characters?  (Trick question!  Do you mean the Monsters!Monsters! derived chart, or the chart in the advanced rules?)

How many of the long list of monsters in the "Creating Monsters" section written by Ken St. Andre can you name?

What is the complete text, both in Orcish and English, of the inscription on the bizarre door to Trollstone Caverns?

Can you complete the phrase "May the magic be friendly...."?

Yes, I know, it's a sickness.
[/quote]

[ZenDog]

Hi this is my first post at the forge, just got back into the hobby after a long (Decades have past) break.

T&T was my first game and I remember it vividly to this day (even down to the armour and weaps my character had). I got to this thread from a link at RPG.net.

Reading your three T&T threads has been a welcome trip to nostalgia land.

Here are few ideas on your comments based on my experience of GMing T&T

1: Character stables and parties
As our player group was usually smallish (me and three sometimes four players), the players always played multiple characters with party numbers between 6-10 the norm.
Any other way would of resulted in quick games indeed.  If there are only three characters as soon as they lost one (ie after the first combat/trap/devious puzzle/insane dwarf wizard ect) things would get very difficult very quickly for the remaing two.
The rest of the stable characters hang out at the 'Town' and can join the party as and when (and if) the party get back to town.

2: Monsters and levels
Someone mentiond a food chain but then theorised that the upper levels would be eaten by the lower levels.  
I always used a heirachy of bullying which seems built in to the source material and feel of T&T.  
At the bottom of the pile are the gremlins, the gremlins are bullied by the goblins, who are bullied by the hobgoblins, who are bullied by the orcs, who are bullied by the ogres, who are bullied by the Trolls, who all cringe in fear at the mere mention of the GM's name (when I say GM I mean whatever Superpowered alter ego you have as you dungeon owner).
Then of course you have the one offs who nobody want's to mess with (like your vampire) and the magical beasts like giant spiders ect that might not be very happy about being relocated to some strange dungeon.
Of course no dungeon is complete with out the GM's pet monsters (like your janetorial Troll).
If you want to challenge the delvers by more than just upping MR's with subsequent levels roll up some Monsters using the table in 2.41.2 either give them simulated high levels or run them like characters and give them AP's for slaughtering characters.
Other parties as mentioned can be a challenge but for a real nasty fight create magical doubles of the party and see how they deal with themselves.
As for food well if there aren't enough dead delvers to feed everyone well there is always the carrion they leave behind and if your monsters are too ethical to eat their fallen comrades (call themselves monsters bah) there are always more than enough spare gremlins to feed everyone.


The vampire using the dwarf to attack another dwarf  is classic T&T and reminds me of  one room in my dungeon that the players used to love as much as me because it was alwasy such a hoot.

The players enter a room via a door the room is split in two by a chasm to wide for the average character to jump.
On the otherside of the chasm is a mixed group of Gremlins and Trolls.
The party realise they'll have to deal with the monsters first so that they can figure out a way across the chasm at their leisure with out being harrased by said beasties.
So out come the spears, Bows and arrows and the wizards and rouges start picking spells.  
It is at this stage the Trolls start using the Gremlins as Missile weapons.
The Trolls make SR as per the normal missile weapon rules if they miss the gremlins make luck SR's  (failure could result in falling to their doom or being spatted on the wall behind the delvers) if the gremlins make the SR on luck they land ready for combat. If the Trolls hit the Gremlins do  damage as a missile weapon then engage in grappling (I used the rules in the Arena of Khazan for Gremlin grappling which I can't now remember but I'm sure ejh can).

And finally any T&T player soon learns to be very very wary of puzzles.

OK so that's my first post out of the way, now I think I'll go read some sticky posts and see what the score is here at the forge before I post anything else (I felt I could safely post the above as I had read all the three treads and almost knew what i was talking about). I ought to start thinking of my game design (wonder if Ken St Adre would mind me using his SR system?).

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Zendog,

Welcome to the Forge! These are helpful comments.

I've taken a fairly classic approach to the dungeon in that (a) someone built it, (b) stuff has happened since then, and (c) some degree of "dungeon management" is going on. Without getting too involved in the back-story (or physics or economics), I have at least some justification in my mind for every level and every room. So why there are "easy things" on the first level and "meaner things" on the lower ones is ... well, it's justified, if not entirely logical or nailed-down.

I'm 99% sure that we're going to emulate the "stable" approach from now on, in exactly the way you describe, but I'll leave the final decision up to the players.

Best,
Ron

[ZenDog]

Cheers thanks for the welcome.

Your Trolls should crack the whip at the lesser minions and organise a counter attack on the players Level 1 HQ. I'm sure your Dungeon's owner won't be happy about the situation.

I just have to say Liz Danforth really made the T&T come alive for me her art work is great.

Right thats it! I really am going to read some sticky post now.

[ejh]

Cheers thanks for the welcome.

I just have to say Liz Danforth really made the T&T come alive for me her art work is great.

Right thats it! I really am going to read some sticky post now.

Liz's art is worth the price of the books themselves.

[Danforth]

Cheers thanks for the welcome.

I just have to say Liz Danforth really made the T&T come alive for me her art work is great.

Right thats it! I really am going to read some sticky post now.

Liz's art is worth the price of the books themselves.

You folks are much too kind... I can only hope you're still reading these older forums since I only just discovered this site. I think it's fascinating that you're not only playing T&T but that you've been putting so much thought into it! That is exactly the kind of thing we wanted to happen, rather than load people down with every rule we could imagine... because we knew we wouldn't get everything, and situations would ... should! ... come up that we hadn't anticipated.

I'm very glad you made the game your own. And thank you for the kindesses about my artwork. It was a joy to work on the game, both as artist and writer/editor.

Now I'm off to go see what else I can read! Not only the T&T egoscan either -- this looks like a very interesting site overall.

Liz Danforth
www.oakheart.com (although it is pitifully out of date!)

[Storn]

Hey Liz!

Nice to hear from you.  I think that it is cool that you found your way back to this nutty-ness.

big fan.
--storn

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Liz,

It's wonderful to see you at the Forge. Your art has been an inspiration from the first.

Posting to old threads here isn't done, however. Unfortunately, I'm running into a software glitch and cannot split this one properly.

So everyone! Do not post here. Recognize that this is a three-year-old thread. If you read the first two posts and post impulsively, I will moderate you in a moderator fashion.

Liz, please do browse the site, check out the posting rules in the Site Discussion forum. Remember, you are always welcome and 100% encouraged to start new threads, referring to old ones no matter how old.

Best, Ron