[KIN] No water, just blood

[Kirk Mitchell]

Right, so I know its taken me ages, but I finally sat down and wrote down the bones of the game. The previous thread for the game can be found here. At its essence, the game is about what it means to be an adult and a part of a family, as well as an exploration of different kinds of relationships between people.

So essentially I'd like a bit of a commentary on the mechanics, whether the rules are understandable, suggestions for music to play during the game, questions, clarifications, and anything else that might come to mind. Please bear in mind that they were written at 11 o'clock at night, so any confusing non-sentences or byzantine explanations can be attributed to sleep deprivation. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Thanks,
Kirk

[Matt Wilson]

There I am reading rules about a game centered on family, and I glance over to the left, and it says "shoving waffles up your ass." I'm like, does that cause a penalty when I'm trying to get respect from my parents?

It looks pretty clear to me, and really compelling. The names of traits are really evocative. I was constantly able to visualize what you were talking about.

That bit about intimacy or pain reaching 30: at first I thought it said you could have a sex scene for either, but that's probably more along the lines of a Paul Czege game.

My one suggestion, and it's really just my own, is to have something in the game that determines when the story ends. Everything else looks really solid, and then it says, "eventually the story will be over," and it doesn't seem to fit.

I bet I could find a few people to try this with at GenCon, although Qdoba doesn't compare to a home cooked meal.

[Kirk Mitchell]

*laughs* The site is my general blog-ish thing, so just ignore the waffle-shoving. Don't make fun of my hobbies.

But the bit about having a sex scene for both Pain and Intimacy, well now that's something I want to discuss: I really, really wanted this in the game, but I don't know how to make it fit. It might be because it is midnight right now, but for Kin, I desperately want sexy violence and violent sex. When I first came up with the idea, my design goals were: 1) A game about family, love and sex, 2) One my non-gamer friends could be comfortable playing 3) with sexy violence and violent sex. No joke. So, please, suggestions!

The same with the end-condition. Its a cop-out. I was planning on playtesting the game a bit first and seeing how it ran before deciding on how to end it. But yes, total agreement here too.

But now I must sleep.

Cherio!
-Kirk

[Matt Wilson]

Honestly I don't see why you couldn't have a breakdown or sex scene at either end. You could allow them as an opportunity for the player to totally reverse a situation.

So like with pain and sex, have it be functional sex, something that connects the character again, that says, hey, all is not lost. Just when you think they're really about to hit bottom, surprise!

Likewise, wiith intimacy and breakdown, it's an opportunity to have a character who can't handle things going well, who screws it all up.

[Kirk Mitchell]

As much as I loved the idea about reversing the situation, it didn't fit my vision of the mechanics. If the big blowout of Pain at the end is actually something good, then there is no real deterrent. I want Pain to be something bad, or at least dangerous. Intimacy is a bit of a mixed bag, and that suits me just fine.

So, I've edited the document, rephrased a couple of points and added some clarifications. Hopefully I can get some more opinions, and maybe con some more people into playtesting.

One question: What sort of game do you see yourself playing when you read the rules? I mean, when I wrote the rules I imagined something like The Royal Tenenbaums, Cruel Intentions or When A Man Loves A Woman, but I can also see soap operas, everywhere from Neighbours (the crappiest of crap Australian soaps) to the O.C., and various family films. I'm just curious to see what sort of atmosphere you get from what I've written (which is admittedly pretty bare-bones. Fiction and play examples are next on my list).

Cheers,
- Kirk

[Kirk Mitchell]

I've been doing a bit of thinking during the day about the game, about how to run it, and possible additions to give the game some drive.

Scars: essentially more categories that you get to define throughout the game by having traumatic, permanent personal changes to the family member's life. Then you stick some tokens in it and it will either increase/decrease Pain/Intimacy. Dunno how to allocate them though. Initially I was thinking whenever a player is asked to pay up on a Sacrifice. But that clusters character development around making Sacrifices. I'm not certain if that is a bad thing or not, just an observation. Now I'm thinking you get one Scar with two tokens every time you get a Sex or Breakdown scene. What thoughts?

Love and Devotion: now this is something I'm totally smacking my head about. I totally forgot about it. Essentially it is a variant of Trust, only it is how much your character loves and cares for another family member. If it is applicable, they decide whether it adds or subtracts from either Pain or Intimacy. Anyways, its in.

If anybody has any ideas, please, shout out, I'd love to hear it!

And please do playtest! While I suppose due to organizational issues, a home-cooked meal is optional, playing the game over a nice dinner is non-negotiable! Fine wine and food is a must! I'm thinking of including some nice, easy gourmet recipes at the back of the book.

Cheers,
- Kirk

[Roger]

I'm not entirely sure how the players interact with each other.  It kinda looks like the game consists of consecutive monologues, in which one player (on his turn) does all the speaking, and everyone else does all the listening.

I'm not trying to say this is good or bad, but I'm trying to figure out if that is, indeed, the case.


Cheers,
Roger

[Kirk Mitchell]

Well, players interact in a very similar way to a game of Truth Or Dare. Players take turns in rolling dice, which they divide between Truth or Dare, hiding them underneath their hands. Then they choose another player, and ask them to choose Truth or Dare, revealing the dice under their left hand for Truth, and the dice under their right for Dare.

If Truth was chosen, they ask the recipient player about a fact: something that has happened, something that somebody knows, how a character feels, whatever. Its like: "What happened between Joshua and Alice's best friend?". If Dare was chosen, they tell the recipient player what their character does to another player, like: "Alice has sex with Damien to get back at Joshua".

Then they give the recipient player the dice that they have revealed. Odds are Pain, Evens are Intimacy. Then the recipient player either narrates how the stated event occurs (dare)/answers the question (truth), with a particularly salient detail for each point of Pain or Intimacy, or vetoes the event with a Sacrifice.

So it is a sort of back and forth thing, where you are presented with someone else's idea and either you have to follow through with it (say yes), or veto it (which will come back and kick you in the arse later on in the game).

Something I've been considering, if the game doesn't run quite the way I want it to, is to have each player around the table describe a detail for each point of Pain or Intimacy acquired. That way everybody gets in on the action, and then the recipient player has to make something with it. If the detail is a conflict, declare two possible outcomes and roll a dice. Evens it goes one way, odds it goes another. Simple. What I want to do is take the focus away from what actually happens, and fussing over that, and put it more into why it happens, and the emotional impact of said event.

Cheers,
- Kirk

[Josh Roby]

Interesting, Kirk.

I'd love to see a projected Example of Play of this.  I can only see the outlines of what gameplay is supposed to be like; I'd be very interested to see what you expect.  Is this a continuation of the prior post "A Family"?  Is the eerie supernatural element still supposed to be present, or did you remove it?

I do wonder if there are too many things to keep track of for a sort-of-casual over-dinner game.  You've got Heart, Manipulation, Love, Ghost, Pariah, and then Love&Devotion for all the other players, then Hate to your left and Love to your right, something you dread and something you're looking forward to, and the little details like where you live and what you do.  What do you think of collapsing some of these, or allowing these as options that players can decide how many to have, or something similar?

Can Lovers/Ghosts/Pariahs be the other family member / PCs?

It sounds like Truth is Pull and Dare is Push; is that accurate?

Ah ha!  I think I've figured out what my big question is.  I can't find any sort of goal for the players.  What are they trying to accomplish, and how is it backed up by the system?  You can sort of get a feel for something a character might like based on their Heart and what they're looking forward to and that sort of thing, but nothing is really set apart and highlighted, not in a way that the system can really get at, reference, and manipulate.  Have you seen Nine Worlds' muses, as a good example of what I'm groping for, here?

The game is supposed to at least start at family dinner.  Is the whole of the game supposed to take place at that dinner, or is it just the jumping-off point?  It seems like it would be interesting to have most of the plot action happen in a series of flashbacks that the characters recall for the others at the table.  Or to go another tack, you could make this game cover a long scope of time if the family dinners are a recurring thing and each round is another dinner a month or a year after the last one.  So you're catching up with each other and describing what's happened in your life.  Or I may be barking up the wrong tree entirely -- that's why I'd like to see an example of play.

Keep up on this one, Kirk.

[Roger]

Thanks for the clarification, Kirk.

As far as I can tell, it doesn't have a conflict resolution mechanism.  That's really neat.



Cheers,
Roger

[Kirk Mitchell]

Josh, thanks for the feedback!

The various categories, you know, Heart, Love and Devotion, Pariahs etc. are the only things you have to "keep track of". All of these other questions at the beginning of play are just to give you an idea of who your character is, their frame of reference and some of the emotional context between the other family members. You don't have to write it down or anything, just keep it in mind as you play the game. They are questions to help flesh out the character into someone you can successfully imagine. And the game isn't a casual over dinner game. Its an RPG disguised as a casual over dinner game ;). I don't really think that answering these questions is too much to keep track of. At least, any more than any other fully fleshed out character in a game or a work of fiction. I'll note this down, however, and keep an eye out for it in playtesting.

As for the secondary characters being other players? Well, the rules don't say anything against it, and I can't see why not. Another thing to try out in playtesting.

And finally, I think you've hit right on the thing I've been bashing my head against ever since I wrote that document: players need goals, but how do you reward them when the only two resources are Pain and Intimacy? It's a head-scratcher, for sure. I hate pointing out problems and having no solutions, but I really don't have any good ideas right now. I haven't seen anything of Nine Worlds actually. Could you tell me more about Muses?

Oh, and the whole eerie supernatural bit? I'm not sure about that one. I mean, I love the whole mythic supernatural thing, but I don't know how well it fits. I mean, it would do Vampire: The Masquerade better than White Wolf does, but for my intents it is neither here nor there. The game can be played either way, the supernatural stuff is just colour. *marks down more playtesting stuff*

Also, I originally intended that you started at dinner, and used that as a jumping off point. See, we've got this whole family with all these unresolved issues with each other, and they haven't seen each other for ages. And now, coming back together for a family dinner, all of these issues that have been left to fester are springing up again. Hijinks ensue! At least, that's the plan.

Pretty much I think the game needs a hell of a lot of playtesting to resolve its issues at the moment. This is the fun part!

Cheers
- Kirk

[Kirk Mitchell]

Regarding the eerie supernatural element: I've decided to include it. My initial reaction, although I really enjoyed it, was that it veered to close to lazersharking, and in a game that focusses around family dynamics and abusive relationships I didn't want to distract from that with kewl powerz. However, on closer analysis, I find that this supernatural element acts as a pretty good metaphor for abusive relationships. I just wonder: would Tom Ripley seem more, or less dangerous/creepy if he were a vaguely supernatural being?

So I'll do a write up of the game with the supernatural element and with a projected example of play as soon as I get some other work done.

Cheers,
- Kirk

[Josh Roby]

Nine Worlds Muses (based on my own probably faulty recollection): you lay down a goal (Conduct the refugees safely to Mercury).  Every time you work towards that goal, you get to draw more cards.  When you resolve the goal -- either completing it or making it impossible to complete -- you get some currency that you can spend to raise stats or create new goals.  Hence most of the game revolves around 'farming' your goals to generate XP to better enable you to continue farming your goals.

[Kirk Mitchell]

Thanks Josh! I've got some ideas.

I'm thinking right now I'd like to move discussion to my Livejournal, to keep everything in one place.

Cheers,
- Kirk