The quest for punchier combat

[Valamir]

Ok.  Based on our latest actual play I've been thinking about a way to perk up Agon combat.

Currently Agon combat is a fairly long, attrition based, D&D-esque whittling down of the bad guys...largely due to the heavy resource management focus of the core mechanics.  What I'm looking for is something more brief, intense, and punchy.

In no particular order, here's a collection of my current thoughts.  These aren't baked enough to be test ready yet, so input and suggestions are most welcome.

1) Minions and Ganging up:
Its possible I'm misinterpreting these rules.  But based on my current interpretation they're a little clunky.  The goal for Minions is not to have to track anything, yet I find the biggest tracking requirement for Minions is the hardest to accomplish in-game...the Minion dice. 

Its a fair annoyance to have to track the Minion's dice and the options available for them: how to arrange their spear dice, when to swap a sword die, where to put the Name and Ability dice.  The rules say that minions use weapons exactly as normal characters.  Better, IMO, to make those choices when the encounter is established...maybe with different choices being made for different groups of minions...and hard code the Attack and Defense dice right on to the Minions stat card so during play its all grab and roll.  Since I don't have enough dice to "save" the NPCs and the different Minion types current dice allocation, I have to recreate every time they attack or are attacked what dice I had where.

This problem is exaggerated with the extra dice gained from the Ganging Up rules.  A group of 4 gets 4 ability dice instead of 1.  But you don't know until its the minion's turn to attack how many minions will be left in the group, so you have to add later how many ability dice the group gets.

So I'm thinking that the rule should be, at the moment the minions are paid for (during set up or created in game) the dice are allocated based on the attack strategy of the encounter.  Those are either fixed for the duration of the encounter...or reallocateable for the entire type of Minions during Break.

Also, I'd replace the current Ganging Up formula with the +1 Helping Dice rule.  Instead of arranging Minions in a "group",  when a minion attacks (or defends, or does anything) its does so alone with its ability die already pre allocated.  If it wants to call on other Minions for assistance (in the same range band) it treats them like Helping Dice.  Roll their die, and if not a new high its a +1 to its roll.  Since Minions don't "Impair" like heroes and NPCs, being used to Help takes the Minion's turn (flip over the marker or something to designate). 

I like this for several reasons.  It actually increases the flexibility of Minions by allowing the group to be invented as needed.  Even if there are more actual Minion attacks (due to the added flexibility) It should be alot faster with no dice allocations or groups to track.  It reduces the raw minion power of the group by making extra minions EITHER an extra die OR a +1 but not both


2) Positioning and range:
Positioning, D&D Initiative on Steroids, is a huge time sink.  Its also not nearly as tactically interesting in play as I'd initially thought it would be from the rules and GenCon demo.  The problem tactically is two fold:  First, it takes too long, far too long, to close the distance.  Starting at a range of 7 it would take 3 full rounds of combat for sword wielding opponents to get to optimal range IF they both were moving towards each other at maximum speed.  If one side wants to keep the other at bay, it becomes very easy to do so.  In practice, the only weapon worth wielding for most of the combat is the Javelin.  Given the major penalty for being out of optimal range and the length of time it takes to close to optimal range, the benefit of having 3 optimal ranges (2-4) makes the Javelin far and away the best weapon in the game...especially given the current "unlimited ammo" rule, and the fact that the Javelin overlaps the Spear for range band 2.  This cuts down on the tactical interplay of the different weapon types greatly, and makes my dual sword wielding NPC a walking pincushion.  It also means that once everybody is using Javelins, its so difficult to knock someone out of optimal range (with both sides getting 1 move) that the whole sequence of moving people around the range bands is greatly reduced in importance.  So alot of time is being spent on something that ultimately has very little tactical impact.

I recommend reducing the Javelin's range to 3-4.  That means no weapon ranges overlap and the Javelin is a less universal weapon.  I also recommend limiting the Javelin to having only 3 "shots" per battle (maybe even 1 per hand).  That will eventually force people to close to melee range rather than sniping forever.

I also recommend an option to allow combatants to close more quickly.  There are alot of posibilities here.  I'm thinking a "Charge" option where, on their turn, instead of attacking  the combatant can simply move a range band.  Maybe requiring a contest roll.  Maybe with a negative to defense.



3) NPCs that go down too quickly, Minions that don't go down quick enough.
Here's a couple of thoughts I have to do both.

First: inspired by the red shirt crewmen of Galactic, a Master NPC can use Minions in the same range band like armor. Kill a Minion, avoid a blow.  So players have to chop through the bodyguards before they can attack the NPC master.  If a Master attacks a hero with a melee weapon, that hero can attack the Master without the blows being blocked by Minions.  That should make the NPC last a bit and give another source of tactical importance to moving minions around.

Second:  I like the idea of killing off multiple minions with multiple attack victories.  Its suitably heroic to have greek heros slicing through hordes.  Plus with the Minions as Helping Dice rule above, there'll be a reason and opportunity to use the assistance for defense instead of attack.

In my head, I'm envisioning maybe 2 or 3 NPCs each with a body guard of 5-6 Minions.  The players use the multiple victory rule to chop through the minions.  The minions are using helping dice to try and stay alive, but its the NPC dishing out most of the damage and who'll be the last to go down.  Have to see if it works out.

[Darren Hill]

Just some brief comments. I'll probably have more to say after my next session.

Minions and Tracking Dice:
I've also had problems tracking Minion dice. I do have plenty of dice, but if I have a group of minions using one weapon, another group of minions currnetly using another weapon, and two or three NPCs, that's five pairs of dice sets I need in front of me. I did sometimes get them confused.
I'm happy with the way they work, I just need to get a sheet with five or six pairs of bix boxes: "NPC1 Left Hand" "NPC2 Right Hand" etc., and use that sheet to place my in-use dice on.

The Javelin:
I have also thought that the Javelin might be the best weapon in the game, but my players clearly don't agree - which probably means it's not too bad.
Though my encounters have started from a variety of ranges - from 1 right up to 7 bands.
The killer with the Javelin is that +1 bonus: so you could be rolling d10+d8+d6, and that +1 applies to the best of them. But that doesn't stop my players quickly switching to Spear at close range, so they can enjoy that extra die on defence as well as attacking reasonably well. So again, maybe it's not too powerful.

If you were to change the Javelin for your game, I would suggest using one of the two changes, not both of them.
Dropping range band to 3-4 and dropping to just three uses is overkill.
And nerfing the javelin might not cause people to drop to melee eventually - it might lead them to dropping the javelin altogether and switching to bows.

NPCs and Minions dropping speed
I haven't found, yet, that NPCs go down too fast. Have you done more than one fight with NPCs and Minions together? Part of this feeling may be the emphasis on offence you gave your primary character, or it just might be that your characters use different (clearly better!) tactics than mine. Having two or more NPCs with your minions might be a solution for this.
I'm not keen on anything which allows multiple minions to be killed, but I quite like the sacrificing minions rule. ("Is there any problem that sacrificing minions can't solve?" - Order of the Stick) But as yet, I haven't fet a need for it.

The players will be facing a single monster with minions next session, so I'll see if the "leader drops too fast" problem emerges there.

[Valamir]

What do you think of replacing the ganging up rules with Minions as Helping dice?  Seems they would unify the mechanic, much more flexibility, easier to track.  Keeping in mind that my goal here isn't to fix something that's "broken" but to ramp up the speed of the combat cycle.

Bows aren't a problem.  They only have two optimum ranges 5&6 which are towards the extreme limit of the range band length.  With Javelins having middle range there are two ways to keep your enemy from closing.  You can move them back OR you can simply fall back.  With Bows...you can't fall back.  Once you hit the end of the range band you can only push individual enemies back IF you beat them in positioning.  And once they close inside, the bow becomes a liability...plus it can't be combined with a shield.  Javelins on the other hand are extremely versatile, you can combine with a shield, you don't have to play "Guess how well I'll roll in next the positioning phase" games during the break.  Between killing a number of minions outright and pushing the rest back, and then falling back if you roll bad, you can keep any non Javelin enemy out of optimum range pretyy easily with 3-4 Javelin wielding heroes.  When they do finally manage to close Javelins are still effective at Spear ranges and are only a -2 at sword range. 

Essentially with Javelins there are only 3 ranges in the entire 8 range strip (0-7) where the Javelin is worse than -2:  0, 6, and 7.  Of those 0 and 7 are non optimal for all other weapons as well, and 6 is optimal for only 1 other weapon.  With a bow, there are 4 range bands worse than a -2: 0, 1, 2, and 3.  Of those only 0 is a non optimal for any other weapon...but is totally out of range for the bow.  The other 3 are optimal ranges for other weapons.  So its quite a different trade off.

I suspect (just guessing) that your players choice to pass over javelins may be a result of 3 things: 1) a personal preference for melee causing them to overlook the optimum choice, 2) heroes optimized for positioning so the difficulty in closing for most isn't as immediately obvious, 3) Antagonist characters who haven't tried to hold players at bay and pepper them at range.  Any of that sound plausible?

[John Harper]

I'll respond to the other points when I have more time (this is GREAT stuff, Ralph!), but I wanted to quickly say this:

There is no "end" to the range strip. You can move off either end and keep going. That's why there are two range strips provided. Just put another strip down and move onto that.

I realize the book doesn't address this. It needs to go in the FAQ.

[Darren Hill]

I suspect (just guessing) that your players choice to pass over javelins may be a result of 3 things: 1) a personal preference for melee causing them to overlook the optimum choice, 2) heroes optimized for positioning so the difficulty in closing for most isn't as immediately obvious, 3) Antagonist characters who haven't tried to hold players at bay and pepper them at range.  Any of that sound plausible?

My group is fairly evenly divided between the archers and meleers. Well, there are three archers, one of whom also closes to melee with a sword !!!
So holding them at bay and peppering them isn't necessarily a good tactic (aside from the low defence while using a bow).
One of my players is (accidentally) optimised for positioning - these rest aren't anything special in that regard.
Only one of my combats has started at range 7. I've had battles start at range 1, 3, 5, and 7 (I hadn't noticed that nice pattern before), and in fact the one at range 1 was the one that gave my players the most trouble. Two of the archers were desperately trying to get out of melee range, and even the spear-wielders took a fair few rounds to get to the optimum range for their weapons, because I kept beating them with positioning.

I'd realised there was no upper band to the range band, so in a different battle one of the archers did get pushed to range 8 a couple of times, while I tried to bring another one closer (into the javelin range of her enemies), but luck wasn't with me.
There has been quite a variety in the five battles I've done, and I think I need to see a few more battles to make any definite conclusions.

Minions as Helping Dice:
I didn't want to comment on this until after I've played using the helping dice rule.

But after your question I did wonder about this: Roll each Minion's Ability die, and for each one that fails to reach the opponent's defence, add +1.
That's effectively the Helping Die rule, and means that while the Minions still hit frequently, the rule doesn't lead to massive hits.

But, that said, I like the Minion rule as it stands, and don't feel it needs changing.

[Valamir]

There is no "end" to the range strip. You can move off either end and keep going. That's why there are two range strips provided. Just put another strip down and move onto that.

Good to know.

Has anyone had any thoughts on how to incorporate terrain into the range strip?  I realize the strip is pretty abstract, but one of the things that makes combat's memorable is having interesting terrain to take advantage of.  I had some vague notions but nothing that seemed worthwhile yet at this point.

I've had battles start at range 1, 3, 5, and 7 (I hadn't noticed that nice pattern before), and in fact the one at range 1 was the one that gave my players the most trouble.

How are you finding the initial ranges get determined in your games.  Using the default range table based on the situation set in the objective preperation?  Using the default range table but based on in-game situation because its developed differently than during prep?  Or through Cunning Contests used to set ranges?

But after your question I did wonder about this: Roll each Minion's Ability die, and for each one that fails to reach the opponent's defence, add +1.
That's effectively the Helping Die rule, and means that while the Minions still hit frequently, the rule doesn't lead to massive hits.

Pretty much.  I was thinking of allowing the Minions to be called on after the roll in the same way helping dice are, rather than roll them all together as a "group" in advance.  That would then be exactly like the Helping Die rule, and could be done on the fly for Offense or Defense calling on Minions or not as needed. 

Oh...another thing I started doing this game that seemed to work really well, was awarding Positioning Tokens for overkilling Minions (i.e. 3 victories kills the minion and awards 2 positioning tokens).   Come to think of it, that would probably be a good third option for spending victories against NPCs too.

[Darren Hill]

Has anyone had any thoughts on how to incorporate terrain into the range strip?  I realize the strip is pretty abstract, but one of the things that makes combat's memorable is having interesting terrain to take advantage of.  I had some vague notions but nothing that seemed worthwhile yet at this point.

It's something I've thought about, but haven't had any good ideas. If you want to start brainstorming (in another thread?), I'll join in if I have any ideas.

I've had battles start at range 1, 3, 5, and 7 (I hadn't noticed that nice pattern before), and in fact the one at range 1 was the one that gave my players the most trouble.

How are you finding the initial ranges get determined in your games.  Using the default range table based on the situation set in the objective preperation?  Using the default range table but based on in-game situation because its developed differently than during prep?  Or through Cunning Contests used to set ranges?

The 5 and 7 were due to the range table, the 1 was an ambush against the PCs, and the 3 (and a 2 I forgot about) were chosen by the PCs after cunning contests. (The 3 was a compromise between the archers and meleers.)
So it's been spread about as evenly as possible between the options.
During the next session there'll be an indoor contest that'll probably be set up by from the table.
Because two of my players are archers, another two prefer to melee, and the fifth likes both, there's no great pressure on them to go for cunning contests. Short ranges favour half of them, and long ranges favour the other half.

Oh...another thing I started doing this game that seemed to work really well, was awarding Positioning Tokens for overkilling Minions (i.e. 3 victories kills the minion and awards 2 positioning tokens).   Come to think of it, that would probably be a good third option for spending victories against NPCs too.

It already is... The standard rule when doing damage: you can drop the damage to penalise armour or increase Positioning. So whenever you inflict, say, 3 wounds on a Minion, you should drop that by two to get the Positioning bonus and  just inflict one wound. Yes, this may be obvious to everyone else (especially Fred!), but it only occurred to me yesterday.
In another thread, Fred (iago) suggested this approach (positioning bonuses for overkilling minions). At the time, I suggested it should instead be a positioning penalty for the affected minion group but I've changed my mind and adopted the above rule (technically, using the rule as written in the text!).

[Valamir]

It already is...

Really?  I must have missed that.  Do you have a page reference? 

[John Harper]

Page 52: Attack

"Each victory you roll for your attack equals 1 wound to the target -or- +1 to your next position roll -or- -1 to your target's armor roll. You decide how to apply your victories."

It's also in the Combat Summary, page 58.

[Darren Hill]

Ralph, you mentioned how your NPC went down too quickly. I wonder if this is less of a problem with the system, and more of a problem with the Helping Die  - allowing players to hit it consistently. Is this possible?

I had a big mutha up against the PCs (with a horde of minions) in tonights session, and it didn't really last long. (Relatively speaking - it took a lot of the session, but because of the amount of time spent on figuring out whether to use helping dice and which ones, it was only really a few rounds.)

In my previous sessions, NPCs still managed to hang around for a while even while getting injured and suffering penalties.
Though the PCs did get a very beneficial positioning setup and all five of them were able to attack it in one round. But without the helping die, they wouldn't have got all the hits they did that round, and the next round at least some of them would have been out of position (especially since, without helping dice, it would have got at least some positioning bonuses for defence).