George's Children

[jim pinto]

Jon Hodgson (illustrator) and I are in the midst of designing a new indie game based on a 2-hour conversation we had the other night about global politiics. I can't say the game itself will be very political, but it will be a dark, humanity-hating-humanity sort of game.

In the game you play children, aged 7 to 12, trying to survive in a world devoid of adults. Sort of Lord of Flies, but without the environment/nurturing undertones. Instead, the game is a mix of Little Fears and Mad Max. I'm still fleshing out some of the details of what you'll actually do during game play, but the mechanics are very very simple.

The game has but one stat (age) and descriptors (strengths) based on how old you are. You roll dice for everything, trying to get under your age or over your age depending on whether you are rolling for your Memory or Imagination.

Jon has already painted two gorgeous pieces for the game and I've written about 1,000 words. I'm going to be playtesting it this weekend, so maybe I'll have more ideas after labor day.

- jim pinto

[joepub]

Jim, cool description.

I missed what input you were specifically asking for.
Where you looking for a critique of premise, or of the age/strengths thing? or... ?

Check out The Prince's Kingdom for a game about children left to decide the fate of the world.
It uses Age as a relevant mechanic in several ways.
The game shares some things, but is more about the profundity found within innocence... and about children trying to take the helm in a world that is very adult.

So... some similarities and some differences. It's put out by Clinton.

Also... on similar lines: young children put in charge of the fate of humanity - check out Covert Generation, by Caz Granberg.
The game is about young children (10-16 mostly) who have realized that Generation X totally sold out to the corporate system, and became a blank void - and that only they can lead the revolution that will redeem mankind. Only they can lead the revolution, and only they can do it by their own moral codes and ethics.

I like the Memory and Imagination thing. Beautiful, simple and evocative.
Why do memory and imagination matter in a world about dog-eat-dog humanity-down-the-drain squabbles?
Why do they matter more than, say... Hatred and Innocence? Aggression and Happiness? Excitement and Disapointment?

...Before I ask anything more, I want to make two mentions:
a.) Your post seems filled with a lot of "progress report". Background and context are great, but how many words you have written doesn't help us that much.
b.) Ask for specific input. Make each post ABOUT something. Ask for questions on stuff that matters, rather than just, "check it out, guys." It'll get you farther.

[jim pinto]

Sorry.

My inexperience on this board is showing.

I have covert operations, but I haven't read it yet. Sounds a lot like the old Cybergeneration game by R. Talsorian.

Clinton's game sounds great.

Someone had mentioned there might be a Lord of the Flies style game out there. Is this what they meant?

I'm only just now getting started on this project, so I'm looking to banter about it. I have the publishing and graphic design angles down, so the "advice" or ideas I'm looking for come in the manner you are stating... these people have already done this... so be aware.

Another concern is having a workable story to run my first session of it this weekend.

Thoughts so far are (and there are world secrets behind some of this which WILL be addressed in the book, I'm just not ready to share them yet):

World ends. Doesn't matter how or why. Unlike octaNe, the world is bleak here and all that is left are children.

When you reach the age of 13, you die.

Imagination is a powerful tool. If you conceive that the darkness has fangs, it does. There is no drawback to Imagination other than the fact that GM can use that against you, obviously.

As you get older you imagination gets "thinner" and your memory grows.

Memory is also a powerful tool. Eventually you have to eat, or fix something, or remember your way back to a place you've been before. Every time you "remember" you get older and essentially get closer to death.

Young children therefore have a powerful tool at their disposal, but once responsibility begins to fester in these kids, the need to make the world better for the young ones becomes more evident.

Game play can take place on two levels: Survival and building.

So. Here's a great question.

What would make you want to play this game?

[joepub]

No need to apologize.
If you feel the need to apologize for some error that is past, don't.
If you feel the need to apologize for some error you are in the process of committing, correct it instead of apologizing.

So...
what would make ME want to play this game?
Before I answer I'm going to point out the obvious: this is a survey question, and all that you will gain is opinions. Opinions are only good to an extent.

But...
what I like about your game so far:
-The idea that imagination can really craft the world. I'm not sure why... but I, personally, don't really care why either.
-The Imagination/Memory ditchotomy (sp?) is really cool.

directions I hope you are heading in:
-"Apocalypse has happened. You are young and innocent, even though you know you will die soon. Where do you want to take the world, young child?"
-really story-focused.

directions I hope you don't take the game in:
-a GM who prepares adventures and leads the story.
-combat-focused gameplay.
-a game full of weapon stats and equipment weights (ie, something crunchy and simulationist).
-a game where winning matters, or is even possible.

Stuff I think your game could learn a lot from:
-Polaris (this has a very doomed fairy tale vibe to it. So does Polaris. Learn to love Polaris' flare and writing.)
-The Prince's Kingdom (the way it handles the concept of childhood is amazing.)

Stuff I want you to answer:

1.) What do the characters DO in this game?

2.) What do the players DO in this game?

3.) What is the game about?

4.) WHat about this game idea has you excited?

[jim pinto]

Ha.

Everything you asked for is already done.

Literally, the first words in the opening of my document are "winning isn't important."

I can see that perhaps you're not familiar with my work, because everything you hope WON'T be here, had NO CHANCE of being in here.

Ever.

That made me smile.

Anyway. The game has to be about discovery. It has to be about opportunity to change things. Even yourself. An opportunity to "mend." It doesn't even have to be for good. It just has to be change.

And because of that, I'm thinking the book will have very little source material and more advice, toolbox-y kind of bits.

"Here's how we handled a game with XYZ..." for instance.

But what the characters and players do is eluding me at the moment. I know this is reverse-engineered, but I can't control the order in which the ideas came to me.

I...

Will...

Buy...

Polaris

Thanks for the insight,

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Sounds like this could be a cool game, have you checked out:
Shadows
That episode of old school star trek where all the adults die
Jeremiah (the show or the RPG)

  I think what I would do if this was my game, I'd identify the key behaviors of chars in this environemnt, then make mechanics that reinforced those behaviors. Like why do some kids become bullies? Why would they continue to be bullies? What would make them stop being bullies?
  Based on that, maybe the game has a Stress stat, where factors in a kids life gives them stress and dominating or fighting other kids the stress goes down...
  Just a thought, good luck wihtn your new game man!

[joepub]

Jim...
before I or anyone else gives any more input...

Why don't you post some stuff, then ask for some SPECIFIC, non-survey feedback about it?
Or... based on the stuff already posted, ask some specific questions.

Because otherwise all we're doing is pitching ideas, and this thread could be much more productive than that.

[jim pinto]

hey guys,

thanks for the input

i'm probably posting too soon. i've only written a few pages of notes on this, but we are moving forward. i'll be playing it on saturday to see how it works. maybe i'll post some information after the weekend and get some feedback on what i did.

i like the stress idea and it plays in well with the "imagination" rules i wanted to use

anyway.

i hope to have something to show off soon.

thanks for chiming in.

[jim pinto]

I've finally got my head wrapped around gameplay (a little more, anyway).

Each session is one day in the life of these children.

You don't play EVERY day, just the important ones.

The game plays in three phases of varying lengths. It also takes place in a "fair-turn" sort of way. Everyone gets to add to the narrative. Everyone goes in turn.



Phase One is simple.

You must find food to sustain yourself. From a narrative POV, this sets the tone for a bleak world. From a mechanic perspective, if grants a benefit later, based on how to you "find food."

Phase #1 (Find food)
Forage (red chip)
Hunt (blue chip)
Scrounge (white chip)

A red chip can be used to avoid a conflict later (I have a banana).

A white chip can be used to cancel anyone invoking a Strength (more on this later), even one of yours OR reduce your worry by one.

A blue chip can change your age for one action (only up), allowing you to "take charge."

In Phase Two, you establish contact with other children (or worse) who are either
a. trying to rebuild society
b. trying to hurt others
c. trying to survive

I don't know how conflicts are initiated yet, but I'm working on it.

I could certainly use some help here.

Phase #2 (Establishing Contact)
Still hazy about how this work though (but it lasts two hours and is the meat of the game).

Resolution was described earlier, but all rolls involved either Memory or Imagination. You roll (2d6) under or over, depending on the attribute. If you have a Strength (character creation below) associated to the task, you may re-roll one of the dice.

Rolling EQUAL to your attribute produces a mixed result, which may or may not be a chart like the FALLOUT chart in DOGS. Or it might just be, you get a point of WORRY (or FAILURE).

Failing means someone else gets to narrate your failure, allowing this game to be GM-less if possible.

I'm thinking that if you don't re-roll and someone can justify an applicable STRENGTH, they can force a roll. You cannot fail, but you can get a mixed result.


Phase Three is called Bedtime and is the end of the character day. It can be the end of a campaign as well, depending on the whims of the children. Basically, you can find a place to sleep (shelter), trudge on through the night, or "Visit the Barn." This is a metaphor at the moment for facing the villainy of the story... the Bully, the Monster under the bed, the village of kids who killed Piggy and took his conch shell, etc.

Phase #3 (Bedtime)
Finding shelter - A cave or whatnot
Surviving the Night - This
"Visiting the Barn" - This is a metaphor for facing down the evil

Your success at bedtime is contingent on how well you act in Phase #2.
You'll earn points, etc. during Phase #2 that lead to your success in
Phase #3.

Still working on it. Any ideas would rock.

Okay.... Now.

Some notes on character creation and resolution:

Name
Age
Strengths (1 for every year above 6): Must be a positive description (crafty, strong, fast, witty, etc.).
Memory/Imagination = Age
Worry/Failure are not stats, but do increase overtime (like Fear/Stress in a horror game)

Initiative is based on age. Young kids (impulsive) go first. Older kids go last, reacting to the actions of younger kids. But all actions resolve. No backstabbing the priest so he can't get off a spell.

Worry is a side-effect of imagination. "I worry that the monster under the bed is real. I make it so and I agonize myself as a result."

Failure is a side-effect of memory. "The more things that go wrong, the more they compound your sense of the world's doom..." very nihilist and maybe not 100% thematic, but if someone has a better name/abstract, give it to me.

WORLD-SETTING:
To me this will be the easiest to write, once I have the rest down. Like octaNe, I hope to write various WAYS to use the game and have DIFFERENT tools and "enemies" based on the tone/style of your game.

Whew.

Thoughts?

[dindenver]

Hi!
  OK, easy parts first:
Memory breeds Worry
Imagination breeds Drama

Second, I think Red chips should go with hunting. the chars have blood on their hands...

Third, I think if you WANT to support multi-session games (I am not convinced you are), you can maybe tweak the phases a little:
1) Forging independance (Could include all the same activities, but could represent more than just the quest for food. What about water, shelter, barter goods, etc...)
2) Forging bonds (Could still be socializing, but takes the emphasis off of finding them. I mean on subseqant days you don't have to find them so much as bond with them...)
3) Forging Results (What did all this effort add up to? Safety, Education, Resisting the darkness in the world?)

  I am not convinced that either your phase two or my phase two requires confict resolution. Technically, gathering up the kids in your village and raiding and looting the next village over is working towards hurting others, building your own village up and survival. The characters might  come into conflict with the next village over, but not necesarily with each other...

  One system I recommend checking out for token-based conflict resolution is ...In Spaaace!
http://www.gregstolze.com/inSpaaace.zip
  The beauty of this system is that the winner gets to narrate and the losers gets token(s).
  Sounds like the game is starting to really form up into a cohesive  system in you mind, don't stop now!

[jim pinto]

I am not convinced that either your phase two or my phase two requires confict resolution. Technically, gathering up the kids in your village and raiding and looting the next village over is working towards hurting others, building your own village up and survival. The characters might  come into conflict with the next village over, but not necesarily with each other...

that was my concern

that the game was diceless and/or could be played without a task resolution

the chips are just "markers"... the game is about rolling 2d6 under/over your age

that's really the keen strategy we have going, i think

but i like the forging concepts, that'll help in this weekends playtest...

and I think memory breeds worry
imagination breeds insecurity (keeping the naming conventions child-like)

thanks

[jim pinto]

I've hit upon another idea for the game.

While I love dindenver's idea about campaigns, I'm mostly worried about the one-shot adventures and what you do.

That said, all adventures are "hero's journey's" the quest to get to the THING.

In this instance, the "THE" is based on the fact that everything is so BIG to children, they can't imagine there being TWO cows... so certainly a journey to a cow would be a journey to THE cow.

And if imagination has that much affect on the world, the belief that there is only one cow, means the characters can never find a second cow.

Even though more exist, the journey to THE COW, is the "be all end all of quest."

Obviously the THE that the children are venturing too is more likely a cave or a bridge or a lake. Something that has a more mystical or terrifying connotation.

I'm just about ready to run my adventure on Saturday, now. Thanks for all the input on here.

I will check in again before Friday night, but I won't post until I have more notes and questions about "what next?"

[Kesher]

Howdy.

That said, all adventures are "hero's journey's" the quest to get to the THING.

In this instance, the "THE" is based on the fact that everything is so BIG to children, they can't imagine there being TWO cows... so certainly a journey to a cow would be a journey to THE cow.

And if imagination has that much affect on the world, the belief that there is only one cow, means the characters can never find a second cow.

Even though more exist, the journey to THE COW, is the "be all end all of quest."

Obviously the THE that the children are venturing too is more likely a cave or a bridge or a lake. Something that has a more mystical or terrifying connotation.

I was reading along, thinking "Y'know, I don't see anything in here that convinces me it's about KIDS instead of ADULTS"; then I hit this post and I almost cheered.  I did cheer.  Just, y'know, inside. 

I think you're totally onto something with this idea.  It really shows the difference between it and, as has been mentioned above, The Prince's Kingdom, which is about kids in a very adult world.  Or, for that matter, Lord of the Flies, which is about kids who are trying to act like adults (perhaps too successfully!)  I don't know what your backstory is, whether or not these kids have ever been around adults, but if not you're right on target.  That mention of the old Star Trek episode certainly seems pertinent, too.

Anyhow, I'm interested to see the playtest report.

Aaron

[Meguey]

 All the adults are gone, now what? Interesting concept. I *loved* stories like this when I was a kid.I have a question and a book that comes screaming to mind.

Question(s): If all kids die at 13, are you presuming a steadily declining population, given the general age of sexual maturity of girls and their ability to carry a pregnancy to term? Or did the catastrophe just wipe out all kids over 13 and from now on they'll grow up? Or is this just a thing to gloss over?

Book: The Girl who Owned a City, by OT Nelson.
Excerpt from Amazon: A killing virus has swept the earth, sparing only children through the age of twelve. There is chaos everywhere, even in formely prosperous mid-America. Gangs and fierce armies of children begin to form almost immediately. It would be the same for the children on Grand Avenue but for Lisa, a yen-year-old girl who becomes their leader. Because of Lisa, they have food, even toys, in abundance. And now they can protect themselves from the fierce gangs that roam the neighborhoods. But for how long? Then Lisa conceives the idea of a fortress, a city in which the children could live safely and happily always, and she intends to lead them there.

[jim pinto]

All the adults are gone, now what? Interesting concept. I *loved* stories like this when I was a kid.I have a question and a book that comes screaming to mind.

Question(s): If all kids die at 13, are you presuming a steadily declining population, given the general age of sexual maturity of girls and their ability to carry a pregnancy to term? Or did the catastrophe just wipe out all kids over 13 and from now on they'll grow up? Or is this just a thing to gloss over?

Book: The Girl who Owned a City, by OT Nelson.
Excerpt from Amazon: A killing virus has swept the earth, sparing only children through the age of twelve. There is chaos everywhere, even in formely prosperous mid-America. Gangs and fierce armies of children begin to form almost immediately. It would be the same for the children on Grand Avenue but for Lisa, a yen-year-old girl who becomes their leader. Because of Lisa, they have food, even toys, in abundance. And now they can protect themselves from the fierce gangs that roam the neighborhoods. But for how long? Then Lisa conceives the idea of a fortress, a city in which the children could live safely and happily always, and she intends to lead them there.

i'm not sure the game is going to answer that question. i think it'll come up in the "world notes." but since the game is mostly a day-in-the-life sort of game, i'll leave that for GMs to decide for their worlds. the "nuke" is whatever the GM wants... decay, plague, zombies, a wish, whatever... all that's left are children. and at 13 everyone continues to die. so, basically, you have between the age of 7 and 12 to do something good with your life. but you probably don't even notice until you're 9 that people die at 13... not sure on the details yet.

now that i'm working on this, people are recommending books all over the place. not that i ever thought this was an original idea, but it did grow organically from a non-gaming conversation.

weird.

playtest notes were posted, btw.