Plots within plots

[Ghola]

Hi folks,

After taking a break from roleplaying and getting my hands dirty with some gold old-fashioned win/lose fun, I became rather inspired to write an rpg. I suppose the game itself isn't my main point, but for posterity I will give my vision.  It's very preliminary, so bear with me.

Knives in the Dark is a game of cunning and guile, where players conspire to acheive their ambition, despite the cost.  The gaming group spends a brief bit of time deciding on the setting and tone of the game.  The players then make characters, most importantly deciding upon their secret goal.  As the game goes through each scene, characters weave a web of lies, favors, and debts to see their deeds done.  The game will be paced, and have a finale, where the most successful conspirator realizes their goal.  The game will probably have a lot of very narrativist elements, with players bidding for narrative control and authorship.  Of course, someone does win in the end.

So, that's that.  I suppose thoughts on the premise would be appreciated, but that's not why I'm here today.  No, indeed I've been rather inspired by my foray into less roleplay-ey games.  Specifically, I've been inspired by Mafia/Werewolf, Liar's Dice, and Diplomacy.

Mafia/Werewolf is a social game were the participants are secretly handed a playing card.  Those with normal cards are civilians, those with face cards are in the mafia/werewolves (there are a few other roles, but they are less important).  The game begins at "night" with everyone "sleeping" (closing there eyes) while the Mafia awakens and reaches a consensus on who to kill.  In the morning, everyone awakens, and the investigation begins. Who's in the mafia?  The group and the mafia take turns killing off one person a round, civillians do so openly, while the mafia does so in secret, until the mafia are dead, or they outnumber the civilians.

Liar's dice is a gambling game with five dice.  If you've seen the second Pirates movie, you'll know it.  Basically you roll dice under a cup trying to beat the person before you.  You don't have to tell the truth though.  The game keeps going, the total getting higher and higher until somebody successfully or unsuccessfully calls someone elses bluff.  The person who was wrong is out, and a new round begins.

Diplomacy is a board game that's a lot like risk.  However, instead of dice, you succeed at combat by making allegiances.  There is time for diplomacy, where you can coordinate your orders with other players, but you have to write orders in secret.  If someone lies to you, writes conflicting orders, and stabs you in the back, oh well.  That's the meat of the game.

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I like all of these games because you have to lie, trick, or confuse the people you're playing with.  Are there ways to incorporate the mechanisms of the games above, or games like them, into a roleplaying setting?  Specifically, to make the lying, tricking, or confusion act as the conflict resolution mechanic?  A game like liar's dice might work for it, but I want something that can draw flavor and material from the narritive, yet occur in a quantifiable win/lose type of way.  Any thoughts.

[Adam Dray]

So I'm imagining that I'm playing Knives in the Dark. The player group decides the setting is based on some fantasy nobility that's loosely like the movies Elizabeth or Dangerous Liaisons, but with elves and mind-affecting magic.

Diplomacy-style: The conflict resolution system is based on support. Everyone gets five cards of various values. You can lend them to other players to use as they like, or get players to pledge cards for support in the next conflict. You role-play LARP-style (in multiple rooms, so other players can't hear you) then come back to the table in ten minutes. I, playing Count Vilune, work out a deal with the player of Baroness Yilnesse. We both want to embarrass Contessa vel di Alnemein at court in front of the Prince. I set up the scene at court, explain what I'm doing, how I'm trying to make the Contessa look the fool, and I play my two best cards (say, King Diamonds and 10 Hearts) for 20 points (plus some cool bonus for having the King at court). But the Baroness betrays me! The Baroness does not give me the promised support! She and Duke Bhresezian have banded together in secret and they oppose my roll with their own cards: 9 + Ace Hearts + Ace Diamonds! I'm out-played, and they write the ending: I am disgraced.

Liar's Dice-style: I'm in a swords duel with Baroness Yilnesse. We both roll five dice under our cups. "26!" she announces and I blanch. Surely, she must be bluffing. I have rolled 2 3 1 3 2, for 11. I don't call, or tell her what I rolled. Instead, I use a trait for a reroll. I look at my sheet. "I use my training at the Eldrion Fencing School. It's a surprise maneuver that sends you skittering away from me." I pull the 1 out from under my cup and roll it openly: 5! Now she's sweating. She pulls a die out from under her cup and refers to a trait: "I have courage of steel, my friend", she says while rolling that die: a 4. Over time, more traits get used and more dice come out into the open. But what is left hidden under the cup? 5s? 6es?

Mafia-style: This is harder, because it requires two sides, with one having all the power. In Werewolf, I believe, when you "die," you keep playing and become one of the werewolves. Say there is a die roll at the beginning of a conflict to determine which of two sides will be the aggressor. Or perhaps there is a bid for the position. The aggressor side is openly announced, then whoever wants to be in on the aggression keeps their eyes open and bids at least one card (it costs you to be involved). You can lie and be an aggressor even though your heart is not in it, but then everyone will believe you have turned. The aggressor cards you bid earn you votes for who the target shall be. Once the target is chosen -- without openly talking! -- their identifying card (perhaps it has their name and a picture on it) is left face-up on the table; everyone else's card is left face-down. The aggressor bids are next to it. The chosen player must try to win a conflict against that pile of bids. Or something like that.

[Starblade]

I know how to incorporate all of them. Politics. This requires multiple people, but there is a stake of certain value, determined by the circumstances and agreed upon conditions before the game, possibly by the method I will explain.

Everybody rolls a number of dice under a cup. Everybody starts with the same collection of dice. Nobody can see anybody's dice at first except your own. You may not SHOW someone else your dice but you may claim that it is of a certain value.

You can choose to pledge however many dice you want to anybody else, and they can offer pledges of points back. The difference between dice and points is that the number of points you have is proportional to the stake AND the product of ALL the dices that you have. Furthermore, points aren't considered until the very end, whereas dice may be transferred immediately after they are revealed.

After the first segment, everybody must uncover one of their dice. They may not reroll these dice. Then the process continues: They exchange pledges of dice for pledges of points. However, you KEEP your dice AND your points. That means that some people will end up having more dice and some people will end up having more points, and some people will have both and some will have neither.

The trick is this: While you are not allowed to openly tell anyone the amount of your dice until all transactions are made, and at that point you MUST reveal them, you may choose to reveal information about how many points you have. Or not. Or you may pretend to do so. You write out how many points for how many dice and what type one a piece of paper which you hand to other people. The points themselves determine who wins and who loses.

The trick is this: It's long term strategy. Your honesty, or dishonesty, may make or break you. Furthermore, it makes more sense to conjoin the dice, but at the same time if that someone is not going to run the RP the way you like you may go for the next best one. And the one after that if you must. This is a combination of all the methods. It's like Diplomacy Style because you can exchange points in secret. It's like Liar's Dice Style because you can't reveal what your dice is like and honesty is optional. It's also like Mafia style because the power tends to congregate to one person over another.

I haven't ever play tested this before so I don't know how well it works, but in theory it should work like politics.

[Callan S.]

A game like liar's dice might work for it, but I want something that can draw flavor and material from the narritive, yet occur in a quantifiable win/lose type of way.

I once had an idea for player generated content that could be in a mmorpg, but it really could fit anywhere. The idea is that an object is hidden and to be found. BUT, the thing is the person who hides it doesn't want it to be found in X amount of time because he'll lose, but he does want it found before Y amount of time (Y being larger than X, of course), so as to win himself.

So you have an imaginary space, and you hide it in there so it wont be found straight away, but will be found before Y amount of time elapses. This doesn't just have to be an object, it could be finding the right phrasing to convince a NPC or some such.

I'd forgotten about this idea actually - wonder if I should be using it...