I want some opinions on initiative

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

I know plain old initiative isn't exactly a super exciting topic on the cutting edge, but I wanted some of your opinions on the way I'm thinking of doing initiative in my system.

Basically, each character at all times has a Focus pool and they allot however much Focus they would like to different tasks. It forces players to prioritize their actions and makes figuring out how much a character can do at a given time more organic. Basically, the problem I'm running into is I can't just have people roll initiative at the beginning of a combat, because if they put the maximum amount of focus possible (an amount equal to the appropriate attribute or Talent as they're called in my system) into a task, they have less Focus for that first round of combat, but it doesn't really make sense that their Focus is lower for the first round of combat but not later. I don't know, maybe that's ok. The way I was thinking of doing it instead is having each characters initiative be equal to their Reaction ability, and give the player the option to put as much or little Focus as they'd like. This means characters could also allot more Focus later to raise their position in the initiative so it wouldn't be a static lineup.

What I'm worried about is that either, each character will just slowly build up to their maximum round by round, and that maybe there's not enough granularity (because my ranks range from 0 to 6) and too often characters will have the same Initiative. Can anyone see any other flaws, or think of ways to remedy it?

Thanks everyone,
Justin

[J. Scott Timmerman]

Basically, the problem I'm running into is I can't just have people roll initiative at the beginning of a combat, because if they put the maximum amount of focus possible (an amount equal to the appropriate attribute or Talent as they're called in my system) into a task, they have less Focus for that first round of combat, but it doesn't really make sense that their Focus is lower for the first round of combat but not later. I don't know, maybe that's ok.

So, a character can choose to go first, and thereby only get a partial action?  Sounds kinda similar to a D&D3.0 surprise round.  Realizing that my opinion is based solely on how I've seen the numbers work in your mechanics, I honestly think it's a balanced decision, and players will not always (or even most often) opt to raise initiative.  Of course, you've got a few different directions you could go with this, which could alter the balance here.

What I'm worried about is that either, each character will just slowly build up to their maximum round by round

If your rounds work like rounds in most systems, the most a character can get out of maxing out their initiative in this manner is a single extra turn.  And that is only if they move their initiative from the end of the order to the beginning.  I think you should base the costs of raising the Initiative Reaction result with Focus around this.

and that maybe there's not enough granularity (because my ranks range from 0 to 6) and too often characters will have the same Initiative. Can anyone see any other flaws, or think of ways to remedy it?

Are you worried about characters having the same initiative?  In Exalted (and my system as well) if two actions occur on the same tick, they both occur simultaneously, to the extent they are capable of happening simultaneously.  You get the possibility of wacky situations where two people can cut off each other's head at the same time, but so far I haven't run into any problems with it, even considering the high rate at which simultaneous actions occur.  In Exalted, there are only about 4 to 6 ticks a round, so it's even worse granularity than you're thinking of.

Also, if the Talents and Abilities are each capped at 6, then the maximum rollable Initiative is 12.  Are you going to cap this at each character's Talent + Ability, or will you allow players to continually add to this even if they've exceeded the maximum number of successes they could get in the first place?  The limitations on how characters could abuse this would also be limited by this cap, if it existed.

Another thought, if the cap doesn't exist, perhaps you might think about allowing wraparound?  If the price is high enough, you might allow a character to preemptively spend some focus from their next round's supply in order to boost their would-be initiative from the next round into the later ticks of this round, earning them two turns in a single round, but reducing their initiative as well.  Considering they'd have to roll at least 24+ dice just to get this wrap-around, I'd say the price is plenty high, and it would keep any initiative caps from putting everyone at the same initiative.

I hope I'm not making too many assumptions here about how other things in your system work.

-Jason T.

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

Yea, it just seemed to me like it might be strange that a character who wants to go first is less capable of taking actions than a person who doesn't. But I think it might work out since conceivably, initiative is important to everyone, and if someone chooses not to allot Focus to Initiative, they might instead play the roll of the counter-puncher, defending against attacks and then laying on a heavy strike or combo.

But yea, I was thinking basically it would be cool to have initiative actually describe who is taking the initiative and setting the pace of the combat, and if a person spends Focus dice into their Initiative, they are literally taking the ability to pace the fight away from their opponents. I'm not sure however if you have to spend Focus dice to raise your initiative if it would really be worth it since it could be just as handy to play the counterstriker. Although there would be an obvious advantage to drawing first blood and penalizing your opponents actions, I don't really want this to be the only advantage because in a duel, neither side may injure the other to any performance detriment but  controlling the pace of the conflict has advantages despite this.

Thanks for the Exalted mention, I don't think I mind people going simultaneously after all.

As far as when people go, yea it's capped at a maximum of their reaction + impulse. So the maximum initiative would be 12 + any heretofore unseen bonuses as the system develops (having special abilities or something)

[ODDin]

I also don't think there's a problem with this. And for that matter, it does make sense to me even realistically. You can rush headlong into action, but then you're less prepared and less sure about what you do, so the outcome isn't that good. You can take some time to think about it and better prepare your action, but then you have to wait a bit.
Also, you should check out what The Riddle of Steel did. Its system is similar in many ways, so you might get some good ideas.

[Vulpinoid]

I know it's not what you're looking for but you could also consider the initiative system in Rackham's game Cadwallon.

Basically, you act in order of how aggressive your mentality is at the time. If you just want to hit stuff and break things you act pretty quickly in the round but there's no chance of subtlety in your actions. If you want to take in the scene and make calls based on calculated judgement then you automatically act much later in the round. Character who want to balance these extremes are able to act quickly in response to the actions around them, moving faster than the calculating thinkers but slower than the savage destroyers.

This is a bit of oversimplication because there are six different attitudes able to be taken by the characters and these are also the attributes. Basically a character chooses an attitude at the beginning of each round, and that attribute applies to all actions for the round (whether appropriate or not). Meaning that a character in the combat frame of mind, will use this attitude for all of their interactions, even social ones that might arise in the round. This often means they are caught off guard by witty one-liners and are instantly offended by anything that could be remotely considered a taunt. Simply because they are expecting a fight and nothing more.

There's a few odd perspectives on Roleplaying that can be found in that book. Most of the people around here simply assume that this is because it's French.

V

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

Thanks guys for the input. So this is basically how the text for the rough beta goes on Initiative:

At the beginning of any conflict where it may prove important to judge who goes first. Each character initially rolls a number of dice equal to their Reaction and as many Focus dice as they would like up to their Impulse. Any Focus spent on Initiative is spent from the characters Focus pool for the first round of combat. A characters Initiative is equal to the number of successes they score on this initial roll. If a character chooses to spend no Focus, they roll only their Reaction ability. If two characters have the same Initiative score, they act in each round simultaneously.

A character who has initiative can use their Focus to act or can hold any amount of Focus to later parts of the round. This is the benefit of having the Initiative as it allows a character greater control over the pace of the fight because they can act before others or at any time during the characters actions.

A character can choose to spend Focus in later rounds to increase their Initiative score by adding new successes to their existing score. A characters Initiative score can never reach higher than their Reaction and Impulse scores combined. 

So for example, Ruji is engaging in combat with a drunken bar denizen. She rolls her Reaction of 2 + 1 extra Focus die from her Focus pool. She scores 2 successes on the roll, but the Bar Denizen rolls 3 so the Drunkard controls the Initiative of the fight and can choose to go first  and/or save Focus for later parts of the round. Ruji uses her Focus to defend against the drunks attacks and make an attack of her own. After the drunks actions on the second round, she decides to put two Focus into raising her Initiative rather than attacking. She gets lucky and scores 2 successes, giving her an Initiative score of 4. This means on the next round she goes before the drunk, essentially allowing her to continue acting, and giving her the Initiative. Ruji's total Reaction and Impulse is 6 so should the Drunk attempt to take the Initiative later in the combat, Ruji cannot raise her Initiative score any higher than 6 in response.

What do you guys think, is it clear? Does the system seem ok at a glance?

[J. Scott Timmerman]

It looks a lot cleaner now.  It does make sense that you wait until the following round to apply the successes from the Initiative Boost action.  Looks good to playtest.

So your definition of "Initiative" isn't just "Order of Action" (i.e., getting the jump at the beginning but only order of actions later, like D&D3 or Exalted), but also some level of "Situation-Consciousness" (Like Old WoD or that Cadwallon thing that Vulpinoid was talking about).  In your case, your Focus allows you to react sooner to the next thing that goes on; but there are limits to how aware any given character can be.

Just a weird thought:  Could there be things like social combat actions, where you force an opponent to hesitate (being slightly confused for a moment), dropping their Initiative?  I figure this would fit in with your mechanics.  Flaws I could see with this would be possibly slower battles, if players become too focused on where their Initiative is.  But I'm just saying, your mechanics would allow for something like this, since they could raise it up again.

-Jason T.

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

Right, I was tired of Initiative just being each fighter in a combat taking their turn, I wanted it to have some non-game component, and decided I wanted it to represent a characters sort of leverage and momentum, their ability to have more control over the pace of the fight. The ways this can be done is by saving Focus for later parts of the round, so you can preempt another characters actions or attack characters later after they have spent their own Focus.

I like the idea of social combat actions, I already have rules for Feints, but I definitely want there to be a lot of tactical variance, and Presence based combat actions would be really handy. The thing that's interesting about my system is that it actually is very dangerous in a much more substantive ways than other system to be outnumbered, because people can grapple you, perform feints to tie up your focus, etc. while others attack you. Feints tie up focus, but it would be interesting to have a social combat action that lowered a characters initiative, what real world kind of maneuver might that be?

Speaking of "Social Combat", I've been wondering about making systems for social intrigue for more gamist sorts a la Exalted. But I'm not sure I want it to mimic combat, because I don't think it really does it justice to make social interaction just another combat. But I guess that's for another thread.