Finding playtesters

[Simons]

Hey all,

So "Game X"/"Escape from Illeria" is going forward.  I think I'm at a point where my close group of friends are tapped out (pretty much they all say, "yeah, it's a good game, you don't need to do more than some fine adjusting now," and leave it at that), and I fear making them completly sick of the game if I push it more, so I was looking for a slightly wider audience.  I tried posting here and another site (bgdf.com), but got no response, and I'm not sure if I can go to my local gaming store (I am about to move, and my friend in town says that most of the gamers just play Magic).  What other resources are there out there for finding playtesters?  Is my best bet just finding a better, more detail-oriented group of friends, or is there something obvious I'm missing?  Are there other sites you'd recommend posting to (my game is sort of a wargame/rpg hybrid, though is maybe closer to the former than the later, at least at this point)?  I feel like this is something that you might have talked about in previous threads, but couldn't find it anywhere (if you have, feel free to point it out).  Thanks!

Simon

[Ken]

Hi-

I wouldn't give up on the local game shop. I had a similar encounter while playtesting Ten-Cent Heroes; its a straight-up RPG and my first demo/playtest was on Magic/Hero Clix tournament day. It kind of sucked, but people did come by the table, checked out my ashcan copies, and asked some questions. Fortunately, I had a few friends with me, so I was able to get some no-kidding playtesting done. At the end of the day, once the tournaments were over, a few people came over and commented that the game looked cool and that it looked like we were having fun playing it. That was worth it.

The next time I demoed, one of the kinds who checked the game out after his tournament gamed with us, and I picked up another player who was waiting for his game group. Their other gaming group kept them from coming back again, but they played it, and it was a valuable experience. I've played more since, and usually pick up a straggler who is just hanging around the shop. It takes time to grow your test group, and sometimes its just as good to kill some time with someone who is not ever going to game with you again.

When you publish, you don't really get to pick who plays your game. Frankly, I think that there are plenty of gamers who get sucked into games by pressure from their friends or gaming groups, so its important to see how accessible and fun your game is to those people. Not giving up on the local game shop(s) is a good idea, and probably the best advice I can give. Its a good place to network and I've found that the shop owners by me really like the idea of having demos in their store.

Personally, I haven't been very interested in playtesting online, though I may if I found a good avenue to do so. Another option may be college game clubs, if you live near a school with such an organization. Again, networking helps. People won't generally fall to their knees  with praise when you tell them about your game, but getting the word out and keeping it out is a good way to maintain interest.

I make little mini-comics spotlighting my core characters and put a character sheet on the back cover. I give them out like crazy. Its a good ice breaker and hopefully helps bring them back to playtest.

Good luck, and take care,

Ken

[Lance D. Allen]

Simon,

Are you familiar with indie-netgaming? I've done some of my playtesting and bull-sessions there, and they're a pretty good bunch of people. It can sometimes be a bit problematic to actually get people motivated, but I've had some luck there, and I'm not the only one. If you're interested, check out the site in my signature, and/or log on to magicstar.net on IRC, and join channel #indie_rpgs.

For the rest.. I wish I had some good advice to give. Trying to get independent playtesting is very difficult. One thing I think would work would be a sort of trade-off with other designers, but as I've not been able to do much gaming lately, I hesitate to make that offer. If I can ever get a regular gaming group again that's interested in trying indie stuff and/or short-run playtests, I'll attempt that technique; Other designers will likely be more willing to playtest your stuff if they're getting some playtesting in return.

In the meantime.. Maybe it'll work for you.

[Lance D. Allen]

Oops! It's #indierpgs, without the underscore.

[Simons]

Those sound like really good ideas.  I will need to try them when I move.  I guess I have two additional questions.  First, it seems like in all those cases your players will know what's happening before they play.  Are there good ways to find blind playtesters?

Second, the advice everyone gives on this subject is "playtest, playtest, playtest," especially with independent sources.  They give the impression that they don't put a game into production until dozens of people have tried this.  How many playtesting sessions do people use, or how many independent playtesters does one usually get, before putting a game into production?  And I know it's not about the number, it's about going until it's done, but in people's experience, what is required to make it done?  Can one reasonably expect to find these numbers in a small town (or, do I really need to have a tough and mean group of friends who are as dedicated to finishing this game as I am)?

Simon

[Ken]

Are there good ways to find blind playtesters?

Again, my experience has been in-store, not online. What worked for me was to start char-gen with my friends and get rolling; any person who is sitting around bored or without direction who has even the slightest curiosity as what we're doing gets recruited. I think these are very valuable playtesters; they didn't plan on joining your game, and probably didn't even know anything about it before you recruited them. Its even better if they have no interest in your chosen genre, or table top rpgs at all; this is the best way to see how clear and accessible your rules are. I've had some really good results with this; if something is unclear these playtesters with find it. Also, I would warn against bringing pre-gen characters; you want to test the whole game, char-gen rules included.

Second, the advice everyone gives on this subject is "playtest, playtest, playtest," especially with independent sources.  They give the impression that they don't put a game into production until dozens of people have tried this.  How many playtesting sessions do people use, or how many independent playtesters does one usually get, before putting a game into production?  And I know it's not about the number, it's about going until it's done, but in people's experience, what is required to make it done?  Can one reasonably expect to find these numbers in a small town (or, do I really need to have a tough and mean group of friends who are as dedicated to finishing this game as I am)?

I'm sure the exact number is different for everyone. I've been through about 4 or 5 stages of play-testing. When I say stage, I mean a series of sessions using the same generation of rules. The first three, or so, stages brought back the most feedback, and initiated the most noticeable changes in the rules. The last few stages have been mostly fine tuning. Currently, I'm running a regular game and trying out as many rules as possible. I try to field everything in different combinations to see if the rules break anywhere. So far, it looks good and I think this will be the rule set that gets published.

The most important thing to me about having a refined product is that it has to work while you are not around to run it. I've got a buddy who runs a regular game in Florida. He gets together with his group (which he recruited at a local game shop) about every other week, and lets me know how it went. Finding people who are excited enough about your game to run it for you independent of your presence is a very valuable thing.

As far as putting a group together; that can be tough. Maybe even tougher in a small town. I had a lot of old friends and gaming buddies bow out while I worked on this; everybody has other things to do. Its not really your friends job to finish this game; its yours. I'm blessed to have a buddy who kicks my butt now and then, when I'm not being as productive as I should be, but you can't always count on that.

As far as group building is concerned; try, and see what you get. I honestly don't know what kind of luck you'll have, but neither will you if you don't start recruiting. It could be disappointing at first, but give everybody a shot and try to learn as much as you can from everyone who gives your game the time of day (especially the ones who don't get it). If you've got friends in the town your leaving, see if one will run a game for you and report the results.

Hope that helps.

Ken

[David Berg]

Simon,

I made a similar inquiry here in the past and I have been told that the proper forum for finding playtesters is Connections, not First Thoughts.

I haven't gotten around to posting there yet, so I can't tell you your likelihood of success, but you might want to give it a shot.

[Simons]

Ken, that's all is extreemly helpful.  I'll give it a shot. 

David, yeah, I've been told the same thing.  I actually posted posted there a few weeks ago, but as of yet have not gotten a response.  I had also posted in another forum (this time for board games, instead of rpgs), and recently one about miniature wargames, but have gotten no response.  I had wondered if there was perhaps another site people would recommend (I'm not sure if any of these sites are an exact fit for my game), or if such results are basically typical. 

Simon