Shaman and the use of spirit favors

[JohnG]

I'm working out ideas for how to adapt my system to my game Shaman, and I'm trying to figure out how I want the spirit's abilities to work.  I don't want it to be just like magic in Ember because it's such a big part of this setting.

The Idea I was working over in my head was that the initial contact with the spirit is made with a "roll" based on how hard it is to get their attention.   Then the player kind of steps out of time as it were and the GM (or another player) roleplay the spirit that the help is being requested from.  Player makes request, spirit makes demand, then a "persuasion roll" is made.  Success means the spirit agrees and uses their power to help the PC.

Each shamans totem would be easier to solicit help from than a random spirit would be.

Is this over complicating things or do you think it meshes well with a setting about modern shamans?

[Filip Luszczyk]

So, basically everything boils down to a roll and some roleplaying?

What's the purpose of the roleplaying part in it? Does it affect the results of the negotiation in any way?

What's the purpose of the initial roll? Who decides how hard it is to get spirit's attention, and does the diffuculty affect what you can get from the spirit in some way?

I think you could experiment with various interactions that could, perhaps, be more interesting than just rolling two times and adding some roleplaying.

What if the spirits can be contacted freely, or just by spending some resource - and then the player states what he wants, and the GM sets the spirit's price for that. If the player refuses to pay the price, maybe the resource that was spent for the summoning changes into some other resource, usable in a different way (e.g. a point of will that could later be spend to resist spiritual influence). If the player agrees, maybe the roll is made, and depending on the result either the player or the GM decides how the agreement was fulfilled (i.e. if the player fails the roll, the spirit might fulfill his part of the agreement, but not necessarily the way the player wanted it to).

Also, are you familiar with Sorcerer and the way demon summoning works there? I think you might want to check that game out.

[JohnG]

I actually own Sorceror and it's been a part of my creative process for Shaman, at least as far as the demon/sorceror relationship relates to the spirit/shaman relationship.

I'm thinking I might want to make the Shaman/Spirit negotiations diceless so any roll required would just be to find a spirit in the local area kind of like using survival to find water.  I really want to use a variant of the Wraith/Specter system that white wolf used so other players would control spirits that pcs were negotiating with, except when the GM deems it necessary to run them as storyline requires or if he thinks the group isn't right for that kind of play.

I definitely will be keeping it as a negotiation process but I think I may allow a Shaman to, either through trials and gifts or by force, "bind" spirits, basically a "you'll do X if I do Y" contract.  But these would be the reward for a long quest not something they can just grab if they choose to spend the points.

[monstah]

I would make it a diceless mechanic too, but I'm partial to that. Also, I think, since the Shaman is asking the Spirit's help, and not otherwise, the Spirit should set the stakes (in other words, purpose what the Shaman must pay to get his help).

Resource spending also comes to my mind. The idea that the Shaman is "sacrificing" something to the Spirit appeals to me. In that sense, using the Spirits' help would have negative effects, be it in the form of resources burned or something entirely different (maybe the resource spent is something equivalent to stamina, thus getting in the way of the Shaman somehow).

[David Artman]

I forget the fictional series, but the "spirit magic" in one fantasy world required blood sacrifice, both to draw the spirits and to control them. Blood is both a resource and a sacrifice: there's only, what, eight pints in a normal human body; and losing more than about two makes you really weak.

So I'm thinking: what if you have a Blood stat which is spent, first, to try to summon spirit(s)... then the roll would be how many and of what kind do you get, based on the blood you spill?

Then, the shaman would check against a Control stat, to see if (basically) he or she can stop the spirit(s) from consuming all of his or her blood. The more, bigger spirit(s) summoned, the harder the Control (making a nice push-pull against the two stats). If you want extra flavor, Control could be granular (i.e. "levels" of success): a small Control success could mean anything from mere unconsciousness to a longer-term disability (anemic, reduced speed and strength, etc); while a large Control success could bind the spirit to the shaman for an extended period of time.

The net blood consumed, after staunching the flow with Control, literally binds the spirit to do an equivalent level of effect (regardless of whether the Control also binds it for a long term period).

Hmmm... this would also open up "ritual summoning" where several shamen provide blood in a single summoning, or a single shaman "saves up" blood over time, accumulating it for a major summoning (better have a GOOD Control stat, though, if you're gonna summon some major nasty with a month of saved blood!).

HTH;
David

[JohnG]

Really loving the ideas so far, the blood idea is cool but I imagine that as more of a last resort sacrifice.  My initial idea was that each shaman has "medicine bags" that contain ritually prepared powder made from an item that a spirit covets.

So if a Shaman wants to control a fire spirit we'll say he has a medicine bag ritually blessed and full of sawdust that he can give to the spirit, or a bag full of gold dust for a raccoon or raven spirit, the amount sacrificed is based on the value of the favor.

The other idea was for them to have "dreamcatchers" for capturing spirits, which is a good way to convince a spirit to help if you're strong enough for them to not just kick you in the teeth when you let them out.

If a Shaman runs out of these then obviously a spirit's a whole hell of a lot less inclined to assist.  Which would be when the Shaman resorts to spilling a few pints to get some help as there's nothing more valuable or coveted than precious life.

Then of course shamans could make longterm sacrifices, like scarification or even sacrificing body parts.  If you want the owl spirit's eyesight permanently then maybe it wants you to gouge out your own eye?  Spirits are just like people though, some good some bad, some selfish, some generous, and so on.  So obviously each spirit encountered may be wildly different from the last, even if they're of the same type.

[monstah]

Blood is a nice idea too. When I first mentioned sacrifice, I meant as in "the player agrees something will happen that will be bad to him in order for the spirit to help". So, for example, in your blood mechanics, spending blood points doesn't just mean you have less of them to spend later, but it should also hinder you (as health does, in Storyteller). There might be different resources to spend from, which hinder you differently.

So, for example, spending blood allows to contact a kind of spirit, but makes you phisically weaker. You could spend willpower to summon a different kind of spirit, and you would be more succeptible to mental attacks and weariness.

[JohnG]

In some cases a spirit may be selfish and willing to hurt the human in exchange for his assistance, like they have to cut themselves in a way to do temporary charisma damage or sacrifice their remaining ammunition, or give up enough blood to weaken themselves.

This won't be the case with ALL spirits, first of all a Totem chooses the human it's going to watch over so it has an active interest in that person.  Their assistance is far easier to obtain and they are much less likely to harm you with their request, unless you've angered them or are working on something they don't agree with.  Each shaman will have only one totem.

There will also be some spirits who are helpful by nature or have an interest in the task your pc is trying to complete.  Obviously a tree spirit is more likely to help someone trying to calm down the fire spirits causing a wildfire then a fire spirit would be.  This is another reason why I'm doing this as a diceless roleplaying mechanic, it'll be quite a bit more interesting negotiating spirit politics with roleplay than it would be adding bonuses and penalties based on a chart of situational modifiers lol.

[monstah]

Yeah man, that charisma thing is exactly what I'm talking about. And while we're at it, another "sacrifice" type would be asking a spirit's help which you know will upset your Totem for awhile.

[JohnG]

yes, but that would be like a last ditch effort because without their Totem shamans are at a spectacular disadvantage.

[JohnG]

I've been thinking that based on the way good shamans do things, which is basically the mechanic we're working with here, that the two "bad guy" ideas I've been working on would work great.

They're two types of shamans, for now we'll call them Dominators and The Possessed until I decide what to call them.

Dominators use ritual and artifacts and a powerful totem to enslave spirits to their cause, forcing them into their service.  Obviously these guys piss off the spirits so they'd want their shamans to stomp them, they're the physical world overpowering the spirit world.

Possessed are weak-willed shamans who are unable to keep their spirit in check, which some totems need, and their totem decides to run the show.  Their spirit takes over their body and acts freely in the real world, able to ravage their shamans body to use their abilities freely and band together with others to accomplish their goals of dominating the physical with the spirit or whatever nastiness they intend to do since nice spirits aren't usually the dominating the mind and soul types lol.

These of course would be the baddy [shamans] in addition to spirit baddies and human baddies of various type.  I'm trying to do this as a battle between spirituality and the materialism that eats away at the soul in ALL aspects of the world not just the environmental, while trying to avoid the AK-47 and machete guerrila warfare environmentalism, corporation bad/forest good ideas that Werewolf the Apocalypse was full of.  Mind you environmentalism would certainly have a place as most water spirits are opposed to waste being dumped in their lake, but I think the concept can be much farther reaching.  Plus if a hundred armed guards empty a clip into a Crinos werewolf, no big deal.  Shamans in this game are going to have an edge over humans but they're not going to be hulking beasts or invincible warriors so they can't just rip construction sites apart with impunity.

[JohnG]

anyone else