Soul mechanics & gameplay

[Xerxes]

Hi guys,

I'm trying to design an rpg where the central conflicted gauge (to use Kirk's term) is that in order to become more proficient at the game's central trades (alchemy and artefact creation, there may be more added later) deplete the character's "souls" (represented by the term "anima").

Each character has a three-part soul, split along Greek lines (thymos, logos, pathos) which is prioritised with a 7/5/3 point distribution, something which is repeated in the Physical/Mental/Social attribute split in the same way as WoD, but with each split being a dice type as in Serenity.  Each part is then split again into two opposing sections which make up that part of the soul:

logos (reason) --> logic vs creativity
thymos (emotion) --> repose vs vigour
pathos (appetite) --> temperance vs indulgence

Each of these functions as a points bonus to action rolls that most involve them (logic added to a roll to argue, repose added to a roll to avoid provocation, vigour to athletic activities, etc).  The attributes and skills in question will be dice types, following the pattern of Serenity, so a standard test will be dX + dY + Z, where Z is the numerical value of the appropriate part of the soul.

Does this work as a core mechanic?  Is it too complicated?  Are the numbers enough to have a reasonable split between the various parts?

And also, how can I reflect the deterioration over time due to alchemical or artificer tinkering?  Set various behaviours by the values of the soul is the best thing I can think of, and have the alchemical and artifice techniques based entirely off other attributes, which may deplete some part or other of the soul on their completion.  Does that work?  Or is there another way I could do it?

Thanks for any help in advance.

[monstah]

I don't know how Serenity works, but what are the dX and dY? And what dice types are involved?

So far I like "opposing" stats. Currently, however, they only oppose each other in character creation, it seems (point goes here OR there); you could arrange it so having a high rating on one stat will always have a negative effect on the opposite stat.

[contracycle]

I first thought you couldn't interfere with the priority assignments but in fact you can.  This may not fly with the rest of you your system, but in principle you could penalise the priority assignment points directly.  Your 7/5/3 split penalised by a point must therefore become 6/5/3 or 7/4/3 or 7/5/2.  To the extent this affects the consequence of assignment, so be it.  If your initial allotment was heavy on the social side such that your 7/5/3 corresponded to S/M/P, and you burnt your social down to 2, now the lowest value, this would reflect the burden of your efforts and a hardening toward pure intellect.

As it happens, you could also take the three values and graph them as points in a volume, such that any given point corresponds to a particular number and allotment of points, a bit like one of those personality tests that allocates you into an area.

[Callan S.]

Hi Xerxes, welcome to the forge,

You've turn the key in the ignition, put your foot on the accelerator and asked us 'Does this work?'. What goals are you trying to acheive with the design? The parts you've shown so far look like a foot on the accelerator, but we don't know where your trying to drive to. Where are you headed?

[Vulpinoid]

And also, how can I reflect the deterioration over time due to alchemical or artificer tinkering?  Set various behaviours by the values of the soul is the best thing I can think of, and have the alchemical and artifice techniques based entirely off other attributes, which may deplete some part or other of the soul on their completion.  Does that work?  Or is there another way I could do it?

Being very familiar with both WoD and Serenity, I can see where you're trying to go with this.

If the central tenet of the game is artificing and tinkering versus the soul, I think you should consider the nature of the alchemy at work.

Is the alchemy internal or external? Does the alchemst/artificer pump their essence into external creations, or are they trying to refine their inner self?

I'd consider a blend of willpower/hit points to represent the inner soul. A value that grows as the character gets more powerful, but something that needs to be focused internally or externally.

If the character focuses their alchemical talents internally, they may be have more hit points to resist nasty effects.

If they focus their power externally, they might have more toys/potions to inflict such nastiness on their opponents.

Just some ideas...

V

[Xerxes]

Thanks for the responses guys, been away for a few days.  Sorry for the late reply.

I don't know how Serenity works, but what are the dX and dY? And what dice types are involved?

To clarify on this point, dX and dY are different dice sizes, which may vary depending on the character.  In the Serenity system (which I've lately seen applied to a BSG rpg too) attributes are represented by dice sizes.  So you don't have (say) 3 points in Strength or  5 points of Mechanical skill, you have a Strength of d6 and a Mechanical skill of d10 (building up on a scale of d2, d4, d6, d8, d12, d12+d2 etc etc).

So far I like "opposing" stats. Currently, however, they only oppose each other in character creation, it seems (point goes here OR there); you could arrange it so having a high rating on one stat will always have a negative effect on the opposite stat.

That may be enough, as I'm thinking that the anima points cannot be directly altered by the player (by application of XP) at all after character creation.  Also, the stats in question may not be necessarily directly opposing; for example, Leonardo da Vinci was gifted with a high amount of Logic and Creativity, one did not impinge on the other.

Contracycle, I'm not sure entirely what you mean by interfering with priority assignments.  I intended to have each part of the soul directly corresponding to the number of points available to each slot in the P/M/S choice, but these can changed by things like XP and similar mechanisms.  Is that similar to what you meant?

Callan, thanks for the welcome.  I realised I phrased my queries wrong after reading your sticky post in this forum, but what I'm trying to achieve with this is a character creation process (and mechanics) that are governed primarily by the "flavour" of an individual's soul rather than their more traditional attributes.  Hence my thought about using dice to represent attributes (a random element) as opposed to the more consistent + X points for the soul characteristics involved.  I was wondering whether such a system would be feasible and not too complex; as it is I may thin it down to just been Logos/Thymos/Pathos, as it might be too complicated mechanically to represent all six parts, as well as possibly biasing certain choices in usefulness, leading to munchkin play (how useful is being Indulgent, for example, beyond carousing/seduction and the like?).

Is the alchemy internal or external? Does the alchemist/artificer pump their essence into external creations, or are they trying to refine their inner self?

I think you've hit on the fundamental difference between the two kinds of factions there; artificers are pumping their anima/essence into external creations in certain practices they have, whereas the alchemists are twisting their essence into different internal shapes in order to change themselves (with the consequent effects on the world in general, given that the way I want this world to work is "soul-driven").

I'd consider a blend of willpower/hit points to represent the inner soul. A value that grows as the character gets more powerful, but something that needs to be focused internally or externally.

Maybe have certain techniques (more likely alchemical ones than artificer ones) boost a form of temporary anima/attributes with the possibility that their anima will be damaged or changed in the long run by their actions.  The key thing I want in this system is one where power corrupts on a metaphysical level; while it may bring about success at their craft and material success, it damages the practitioners as humans and fundamentally changes them.

In order to work this I'd have various skills (based off different artificer methods and alchemical disciplines) that represent proficiency in alchemical or artificer practices.  I imagine them being similar to VtM disciplines in a way, but also being "skill points" or something like them (maybe dice types as before, or points to represent a definite proficiency) as part of the skill tests themselves.  This allows them to be associated with a more common skill and attribute as well, completely removing any association with anima on a mechanical level.

Are things starting to make sense?  And/or are they too complicated?

[Callan S.]

Hi again, Xerxes,

Err, I don't have any sticky posts - I just welcomed you as another guy at the forge, I'm not anything to do with the people who run it.

I'm still not sure what your goal is. Let me pitch it this way - imagine you have just played your game. A friend comes up and asks 'Hey, what did you experience in that game that you haven't experienced in any other roleplay game before?'. What would you say?

[contracycle]

Contracycle, I'm not sure entirely what you mean by interfering with priority assignments.  I intended to have each part of the soul directly corresponding to the number of points available to each slot in the P/M/S choice, but these can changed by things like XP and similar mechanisms.  Is that similar to what you meant?

Yes sort of .  It's fairly rare to change attribute values, and then only as a significant penalty or as character growth.  In some sense the assignment of strength and weakness is more character concept and representation than purely mechanical.  More so than skills, wounds and whatnot, changing attributes can really change a characters identity.  But that seems suitable to your concept so it fits.  If the character trajectory is being mechanically expressed, then it is appropriate that it is expressed through attribute changes.  The kind of thing I'm thinking of would make attribute changes of this nature a significant and quite frequent occurrence and one more likely to be negative than in most games. But it would be viable for your scenario.  Changes to attributes would be a central mechanic something like Humanity in Vamp.

[Xerxes]

That's more or less what I'm thinking with the soul values and such, that certain mechanical values would alter behaviour in the character to an extent, and the reduction in soul values would bring about a reduction in character, eventually reducing them to a vegetative state as they have no soul left to drive them.  Although as always I'm aware that character and expressions thereof will always be more than values on the character sheet.  I'll work on exactly what those changes will be once I have the time to do so.  It might also force me to stop making the soul as a series of oppositions; I'd imagine it'd difficult to make all that into an expressible system of behaviour without constricting character around attributes too much.

Callan, what I'm thinking of for the game is to make the impression upon players that actions their characters take influences those characters, and they can be changed by them.  I appreciate that this is already in place in a few games (humanity in WoD for example), but I want to make it a driving force behind the whole game rather than just a way of regulating roleplaying behaviour.

That and I love the idea of a medieval-fantastical steampunk setting, which is what I'm trying to achieve with this setting and its opposition of artifice and alchemy.

[contracycle]

Make the players buy down their own attributes in order to achieve goals.  Then the alteration in mechanical representation will be synchronised with an in-game narrative by the player.

[Xerxes]

That's fair enough.  I'm guessing that it'd be a good idea to link in particular attributes with particular goals?  That way certain people doing the same actions will degenerate in the same way.