Moving with the times

[Raymond Caleatry]

I have a simple question...

With the rapid advancment of technology and the ease of which software can be created, do you think that the average gamer would appreciate software based tools, ie for character gen, etc as part of a game.  Wizards are doing this with their 4th edition, but how do you think this will affect the indie scene?

Possible useful areas include:
-Character Gen
-Integrated setting tool, or encyclopedia
-Automatic web updates that allow you to sync with a database to download new content and errata old material.
-GM tool for organising notes etc...

All of these have been done before, but are generally linked to the D20 system in some way or another.

I have found that laptops at the gaming table tend to detract from the game, even if the are limited to the GM, but others i know have had more success.

Ray

[Alexandre Santos]

I guess it depends on what you are thinking about: will the tools be used during the game, or provide ligistical support in between game cessions?

In between game cessions:

- PC and NPC calculators: able to compute character values, and produce nice looking character sheets
- Mechanic simulators (some RPGs have combat simulators, which allow you to better figure out the mechanics and balance your NPCs in relation to the PCs)
- Knowledge-based systems to store data

In game cessions:
- sound/music tools
- dice rollers
- online ressources (the web, rulebook, etc)
- image displaying programs

I think usage of laptops is ok for contemporary or SF settings. For a setting less technologically advanced, it can destroy the immersive feeling. Also, it can distract the GM, which is really bad for the game rhythm.

In general, I try to avoid playing games which require too many calculations, or constant reference to a rulebook during the game cession.

[contracycle]

If you need a programme to do character generation its probably too complicated IMO.  That said there is a legitimate function for NPC generators and the like, but again, you need a system of a certain complexity to make this worth while.

A more important factor that the ease with which software can be created is the frequency of people with machines.  Are we at the point we we could make the assumption that all players will have a machine, or access to one?  That might present some opportunities for using computing without using at the table, as I agree this is uncomfortable and unwieldy in practice.

Is the big cost in delivering art still the cost of multicoloured printing?  If so it might be more practical to make images available on disk or for download.  Otherwise it would conceivably be possible to build a 3d landscape as your "world map" and zoom in to various areas and fly around in it, maybe with GM controlled fog-of-war.  You could periodically release locations as 3d fly-thru's or fly-overs.  Animations of characters carrying out acrobatic and combat moves.  Your huge background origins myth in FMV and voiced by Charlton Heston Himself.

One thing I would be very keen to see, and which I have tried to find, is a freestanding portrait maker.  Eve had a really fantastic face maker with tremendous ability to handle subtle manipulations of facial features that allowed you to create aesthetic effects; the ability to produce an actual and literal portrait of a character (drag n drop weapons and clothes and whatnot from the game frex) would be fantastic, I think.  "Putting a face to the name" is very important and I'd be prepared to pay money for a tool that did that properly.

The other day I saw a demonstration of a smart table that could react to things placed upon it.  One could imagine a future in which miniature-type tabletop gaming has the game embedded in the table and you simply move your character token from square to (legal highlighted) square it churns all the probabilities itself.  Not practical in the short term, its a luxury device, but indicative of possible directions.

[Raymond Caleatry]

A quick search found me this...lol

http://flashface.ctapt.de/

http://www.scottsmind.com/games/evil_clown/

http://www.kitt.net/php/3dface.php
(lol)

and if you are actually looking for a professional product look here
http://www.facegen.com/modeller.htm

There are lots of add-ons that you can get for this package, including the ability to have hair!!!!!!!

Ray

[pells]

Hi Raymond,

I believe there are two different approaches to this questions :
- Using a "webtool" to support your product (1)
- Using a "webtool" as a product in itself (2)

Let me explain :
In (1), you sell books (or pdf) and provide a webtool as a way to support your main product. This means your customers will or won't use this tool ; it is up to them.
In (2), you might still sell books or pdf, but this is not your real product : it is your webtool !!! It is not there only to support your product.

Now, what's the main difference ? In (2), you move from a product based model to a service based model. Also, in (2), revenues are generated in a different way : using this model, normally, you tend to be looking at monthly fees. And the approach might also different in selling. For instance, take the video games industry : games like WoW might be given away !!! Because the main source of revenue is subscription !!! This might be the case (why not) for rpg : in a service based model, you might turn out giving your main product as a way to generate subscription.

[Clay]

I think that the cost to produce a quality piece of software is fairly prohibitive for the independent publisher.  If you are a programmer yourself, you might be able to make that a salable product.  But if you need to contract to have this done the cost is going to be beyond what you want to spend.

A professional developer should be charging you around $125/hour.  A character generator for even a simple game like The Shadow of Yesterday should take 16-32 hours to come down to a complete package that can be easily installed on client computers and produce nice looking output.  That's $2000 - $4000, which is beyond what you can probably afford to do. 

And yeah, you can probably get someone to write the software for a lot less.  But before very long it will also look like you paid somebody else to do it for a lot less than you should have.

[Lance D. Allen]

This is not as unrealistic as you might think. Look at The Riddle of Steel; While it still qualified as an indie product, it had an elegantly functioning combat simulator and a character generator, both created by the talented Brian Leybourne. At that point, he was essentially just an uber-fan, which is the source of many of the programs in existence in support of one game or another. Some of them are pretty buggy and inelegant, but there are some pretty sharp ones out there that have no official affiliation with the games they support.

Within the indie community, the possibility exists as well. Many talented people are fans of indie games, and they may be interested/willing to help out with such products. You can endorse these products (assuming they're quality enough that you'd want to) and give credit where it's due. As an aspiring programmer myself, I work on various products to use with my own products, some of which wouldn't be hard to modify for other games.

So, if anyone is interested in such things, I may be interested in helping out. I can't make any promises as I'm not that skilled a programmer yet... But I'd relish the challenge of working on a project for someone else.

[Ken]

Hi-

While I can't speak for all gaming groups, my experience has been that web tools are most often used by the GM. I haven't been in many situations where the average player has spent much time using electronic resources, other than character creation programs (D&D, Champions, etc.). Now, as a GM, I've spent hours hunting down cool online resources for whatever game I'm playing. I love NPCs and NPC building tools, ready made adventures, exotic items, and optional rules. I certainly think there is a place for these products with just about any game, but I don't think that everyone who plays a given game is a potential customer of electronic support; mostly just GMs and uber-fans.

I think the before-mentioned service model of support is a great idea. Its also the most work intensive, which usually means money and time to produce a decent product. I think the trick with a service program is realizing that you are never done refining it. If a customer goes on line say after day, week after week, or month after month, without finding updated, interesting, or useful material, then they may question subscribing to a service. Unlike, normal publishing methods, this tact would require ongoing commitment to continuous better the core product, grow subscriptions, and enhance service to customers.

Sounds like a real job, huh? Interested in success stories, or any feedback.

Ken

[Raymond Caleatry]

I am not sure i would want to produce a service based program as it would require too much time, and would make producing the game a job.... a poorly paid one at that.  I think before you release a service based program you need to have a large player base for it to work.  I think this restricts the indie scene, as there are too few people spread over a large number of games, who also don't want to spend money.

Ray

[guildofblades]

Remember, web tools need not be charged for to be revenue generators. They can be advertising driven instead or both.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

[pells]

Note : my own project is service based.

If a customer goes on line say after day, week after week, or month after month, without finding updated, interesting, or useful material, then they may question subscribing to a service. Unlike, normal publishing methods, this tact would require ongoing commitment to continuous better the core product, grow subscriptions, and enhance service to customers.

That's a good point. I think to start up with a service based webtool, you need a lot of initial content ; and ongoing updates. But, the more initial content you have, you better you will be. But one thing about updates : the aim of a service based project should be to provide the customer with a somehow unique experience. When people log in into such a site, they should feel "at home".

I am not sure i would want to produce a service based program as it would require too much time, and would make producing the game a job.... a poorly paid one at that.

Okay now, about costs. My "real" job is as a project manager in an IT company. So, well, this kind of help me acheive my goals. That said, some of my friends are working in that field too ; and lucky am I, some decided to help me. Just for the "site aspect" of the project, there is me (doing analysis and defining the site), a database administrator and two webmasters. The cost to produce this would be enormous ; at least 100,000$ in my case ...
But, try to see this from the bright side : finding programmers is a hell of a job, but illustrators too !!! I mean, I was an illustrator, finding out others wouldn't be a problem !!!

I think before you release a service based program you need to have a large player base for it to work.  I think this restricts the indie scene, as there are too few people spread over a large number of games, who also don't want to spend money.

I'll be honest, I'm not targeting the indie scene audience, but a more common one (your typical d20 player). The idea would be to provide them a solution, a complete one, as an alternative to their typical buying. As for a fan based, I really believe you could come up with a service that supports a community, that helps it exchange information.

Remember, web tools need not be charged for to be revenue generators. They can be advertising driven instead or both

Yeah, of course !!! That said, the service stay the same, it's just the revenue that changes (instead of subscription, it is ad based). For more about it, I invite you to read this.

[Adam Riemenschneider]

I think the short answer to your question is "yes."

Laptops are already present at my own gaming table, and I know of others as well. I primarily use it for Google Maps, quick lookups on wikipedia (a dump truck you say? I don't know.... how much *can* they haul?), and for sending in-game notes via instant messengers (since we can type faster than we can write on sticky-notes).

I also use my laptop to take notes. Makes it easy to search for entries and whatnot.

As a *player, there's not too much in the way of additional, game-centric software that I feel I'm lacking. Yeah, DnD has that cool mapping/hex thing going on, but my kind of games aren't all that married to a hex situation.

As a *gm, though, there are some things I'd like to have. I'd *especially* like some kind of aid in speeding up combat, without sacrificing detail. Random NPC generators would be nice, too, provided there were parameter filters I could place. "Cop." "Hillbilly Cop." "SWAT Cop." "Corrupt Cop." "Nice Guy Cop."

I think some kind of generic, stand-alone tool that could do these things would be a viable product. A generic one would have to be tailorable to any game's mechanics, though. Of course, you could make specific game models, too, for popular game lines.

As for the encyclopedia concept you mentioned, this is something I've been noodling on a bit myself. This part could very well be service/advertising oriented. I keep thinking of it as a giant wiki, full of NPCs, world/setting detail, magic items, quick-and-dirty scenarios, and the like. *And* you make it work *with* your stand-alone Assistant tool, for quick data input.

Example: You are gm, and suddenly find yourself in need of a "Hillbilly Cop" NPC. You are signed in to the WonderGamingWiki, out of habit. Your players are essentially waiting. You plug in the game you are playing. You plug in Cop, and the Hillbilly Cop option. The WonderGamingWiki goes to that page, which lists all the Hillybilly Cop information and stats, tailored to the game system you're playing. Then you push the "Get Data" button, and your Assistant tool grabs the info.

You switch back to your Assistant program and click the "Roll Initiative" function.

Yeah, I'd pay a few bucks for access to a service like that.