[SAN!] elusive CA; plus, deep sea fishin'

[Marshall Burns]

So, I had a chat with David Berg regarding our discussion in the Bubba Bad thread, and it turns out I had totally missed his point.  And his point, it also turns out, makes complete sense.  See, we each argued that the play was one of two things:

1.  Low stakes, low Challenge Gamism, with the "character vs. character" competition cranked way way up, and Stepping on Up about humor, absurdity, and lateral thinking.  Plus a high degree of Exploration of Situation & Color.
This is what I was formerly convinced was going on, and it was what I had intended when initially designing SAN!

2. The competition was there, but actually had no stakes, or at least no stakes that anyone cared about, and was actually a Technique for Exploring Situation & Color, with that Exploration being the priority (as opposed to Exploration used merely to provide an arena for competition).  This would appear to be some crazy-ass kind of Simulationism.
This is what David believed it to be, based on the posts.  The crazy thing is, it totally works as a hypothesis, just as well as my own hypothesis had.  I can't think of anything from play that really contradicts it.

However, I was still convinced my hypothesis was correct.  I figured that there was merely some detail I had not noticed or had neglected to communicate to David that would be the shining key and settle the matter.

Then David hit me with a bombshell.  He suggested a hypothetical re-structuring of SAN! that was clearly and without a doubt Gamist in the manner I had described.  Specifically, it would outlaw poker faces up front, TILT! would be awarded proportional to the intensity of reactions, and players would keep track of gross TILT! earned.  The person with the highest gross TILT! would, after a time limit, be declared The Winner.

I call this a bombshell because although it would clearly lead to the sort of Gamism I had described, I don't want to play it that way.  It sounds like less fun--which, to me, suggests that what I had already been enjoying might not be Gamist play at all, and that's why I'm currently mystified regarding this.

A third possibility occured to me later, although I think it far less likely:  congruent G & S, or repeated Transition between G & S.  But I doubt it.

I really just don't know.  And whatever it was that really happened, that's what I want this game to do, regardless of my initial vision, because it was FUN.  So, from a design standpoint, I need to know, so that I can continue to design the game.  To that end, I provide below an account of part of the latest playtest, including as much of the system usage as I can remember.

The Characters
Stephen:  the illegitimate son of an undisclosed member of the Pentagon
Courtney:  a fiery-haired nymph with power over plants and such
Me: a cybernetically enhanced rhinoceros

(Can't remember the names; don't have the sheets on hand. Bear with me)

Preparation
We decided to do an Olympic-style competition and brainstormed for events until we had a Dodecathlon of Doom.  Then we rolled a d12 to see which one was first:  Deep Sea Fishin'!

Scene framing
We established that:
1. We were all on a boat in the ocean, along with the referee (who never came into play)
2. The judges were on a larger boat nearby
3. Whoever caught the largest sea animal would win the event
4. A giant squid would appear at some point

We also used the Scene Framing from a Hat rules, and turned up:
1. "Pirates! Arrr!"
2. "Men from Mars!"
3. "A crate of ninja stars"
4. "the ocean" (to everyone's amusement)

Deep Sea Fishin'!
In the first round, I declared that the rhino got a bite (Endowment).  I then passed my turn.  Courtney went next and directed the nymph to flick his whip at the rhino's line to snap it (using Swag + Skill).  I forget what I rolled to resist it, but it failed; the line was snapped.  Stephen used his turn to have his guy call up some contacts on his cellphone (Swag) and, "using Daddy's money" (one of his Skills), order some frozen fish to be air-dropped into the area in a few rounds (laughter, TILT earned)

Without fingers, the rhino would be unable to repair his snapped line, so he pursued a different tack:  issuing a fearsome bellow (Power) to frighten nearby fish into a coma, causing them to float up to the surface where he would be able to reach them (laughter).

Then my memory gets kinda fuzzy.  I know that I brought in the giant squid (Endowment, since it was established that it would happen), the nymph pushed the kid overboard, the rhino attempted to put out the nymph's hair (using Brawn and also the Quirk "I instinctively put out fires" -- which also earned me a laugh) but failed, Stephen Endowed the squid with a whole family of squids, the frozen fish arrived to no avail, and the nymph fled to the helm.  I don't know why he went to the helm, but Stephen introduced tiny Martians in the machinery at that point (Endowment).

Somehow, Stephen's character got back on deck, but I directed the squid to grab the crate of ninja stars from on deck (establishing where they were was an Endowment) and hit him with it.  He came out of that conflict "Ninja starred" for 27 points, and used a "Bad joke" skill to say the one-liner, "I'm seein' stars!" which of course earned Stephen a point of TILT.

Now, Stephen reasons that his character can just put a hook into squid by hand and catch it that way--and he succeeds at it, prompting laughter (keep in mind that I brought in the squid in the first place).  I try to sever the tentacle the hook is attached to using my Laser Horn (power), but I fail against some toughness that Courtney Endows it with.  Still, though, the kid has to actually get the squid on deck, so I'm not worried.  What I do is have the pirates show up (Endowment, since it was established that pirates would happen) and board the vessel, reasoning that they can slaughter everyone while I hover at a safe distance on my Jet Boosters (power), then I can just grab one of the comatose fish floating all around.

What happened was that the kid used Daddy's money again, this time to buy the services of the pirates (laughter).  I Endowed the pirates with a "Loyalty" stat and their captain with a "40 lashes to mutineers! Arrr!" stat to try to resist this, but he still took control of the pirates (which I introduced in the first place).

Exasperated, the rhino, still flying on his jet boosters and using the Quirk "I am known to charge at random" (laugh), smashes through the hull of the boat in order to sink it (success) and force a tie.  Then Courtney gets a wicked grin on her face.  She says, "We have to get a fish onto the boat to catch it, right?"  "Yeah."  "Does it matter which boat?"

The nymph grabs a comatose fish (a tiny fish!) as the boat sinks.  Then, GOTCHA!, it turns out that the nymph can teleport!  He does so, ending up on the (now vacant) pirate ship, and, as the only who actually caught a fish, is declared the winner.  And everyone laughs for like five minutes because the whole thing just sank in and is so totally absurd.

I noted the victory, thinking that we'd tally up total victories over the 12 events to get an overall winner (we only got as far as 3 events), but we promptly forgot about it as we got started on the next event ("Underwater basket weaving," which turned out actually to be "steal the basket from the nymph and try to take credit for it").

So, some phenomena we've noted in all the play so far:
1. You spend TILT! as fast as you earn it.

2. Any advantage lasts for all of five seconds, and then someone's buying it away with Daddy's money, or some similar thing that you never would have seen coming.  Thus TILT! is not as powerful as it looks, and allowing other people to earn it is not a concern.

3. Similarly, any defeat or disadvantage is promptly forgotten, and maybe not even worried about at all.

4.There was a distinct feeling of, "hey, weren't we supposed to be doing something?" as we got off on a back-stabby tangent, then back to the fishing (or whatever the current goal was).


So which thing was it?  I dunno.  I'm gonna discuss this with the group Thursday and get their thoughts on it; maybe they were really concerned with winning, or at least with avoiding losing.  I'm not even sure if I was--I had assumed I would be from the get-go, so I never really payed attention (which sounds silly, but it's true).  And I'd like for anyone with an opinion on the matter to weigh in (if there's not enough here to work with, I can go on to describe the basket weaving event).  But give David a chance to drop by first, just in case, so he can correct me if I misrepresented his argument.

-Marshall

[David Berg]

Marshall,

I think you summed up the possibilities we discussed quite well. 

I'll give your latest description of play some more mulling before I give my take on what was happening there.  I hope others will feel free to jump in before then if so inclined.

I'll do my best not to lose track of what is and should be happening in the game amidst the CA talk -- I've done that before.  No good talking about what to call something before we've really identified it!

One possibility I'd like to raise: perhaps you are, to some extent, emulating Loony Toons (not in specific content, but in style and absurdist un-logic).  Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Marvin the Martian; maybe even a touch of Aqua Teen Hunger Force without the snide reactions.  This is what the specifically "crazy-ass" component of your group's humor evokes for me. 

This is, I think, somewhat represented in your text, but not strongly.  You might want to consider whether more explicit reference to cartoons might help to get play groups on the same page and playing the game as you intend it to be played.

-David

[Marshall Burns]

David,

The comparison to Loony Toons is fair and appropriate.  I even remarked at one session that the game does what I had hoped Toon would do (Toon failed to do what I hoped it would -- but then, I've only played one campaign with it).

So, I explained the Big Model to my group, step by step (I even drew the diagram), and it went down pretty easily.  We discussed this stuff before playing again, and we discussed it after playing to double check.  We've come to the conclusion that option #2 is what's going on.  Which calls for some radical changes to the text.  Which I will get to at some point.

Damn you, David, you got me!

The last session also raised some issues about the Drive... it would seem that Drive needs to be more flexible, or able to change over the course of a game.  I'm gonna have to think about how to implement that.

-Marshall

[David Berg]

Now, Stephen reasons that his character can just put a hook into squid by hand and catch it that way--and he succeeds at it

Here's my mental reaction to reading that:

What?  How does that work?  What are the spatial logistics here?

Did anyone complain?  Or at least object?  Could someone else just have done the same thing?  If they could have, did they know that?

Oh, wait!  None of that matters.  The point is, IT WAS FUNNY!

The last session also raised some issues about the Drive... it would seem that Drive needs to be more flexible, or able to change over the course of a game.  I'm gonna have to think about how to implement that.

I'm gonna be a lazy-ass and just ask you instead of reading your rules again: what exactly is the Drive mechanic supposed to accomplish w.r.t. player enjoyment?

Thanks for the continued AP posts, I crack up every time I read them!

-David

[Marshall Burns]

Oh, wait!  None of that matters.  The point is, IT WAS FUNNY!

Yep, pretty much

As for the Drive...  The Drive is what provides Drive Points, character resources that are used for fueling powers, recovering fatigued skills, and ignoring Inconvenience.  The idea behind it is that you only get Drive Points by pursuing your character's Drive -- thus enforcing a certain degree of Exploration of Character, at least enough that it never just goes away.  I figured this was a big deal because, at the time, I thought I was working on something Gamist, but I didn't want character to just "go away," which has happened in games I've played in the past.  But, even though we're not going at this in a Gamist fashion, I still like that the character gets resources based on pursuing the things they are Driven to do.

In the session I was referring to, I played a noodle-covered mummy named Ramen Hotep.  We were at a Halloween carnival, and there was this woman who was dressed as a mummy, and I decided that Ramen Hotep would fall in love with her.  Now, his Drive was his love and admiration for noodles, as an ancient Egyptian noodle priest; but I would have liked to have got points for pursuing his love for Billy's Mom (she never got a real name, although her son did).  I had him try several times to impress her (mostly by saving Billy from this weird alien Courtney was playing, who kept trying to abduct Billy) and otherwise woo her anyway, but I found myself wishing that his Drive had been "my love for Billy's Mom" from the moment they laid eyes on each other.

-Marshall

[David Berg]

Sounds to me like an important aspect of Drive is how broad it is.  I'd suggest making it as broad as possible while still serving to distinguish the character.  Example drives for a mummy could be:
Do Mummy stuff
Do un-Mummy stuff
Gain power
Become popular

Broad can be good because it expands the range of in-game circumstances that can be twisted into opportunities for character portrayal.  On the other hand, keeping track of all the Drive points being constantly earned might be unwelcome bookkeeping....

Another thought is to make Drives changeable for some cost.  Like, spend TILT, or accrue Inconvenience, or something, and you can change "adore noodles" to "win Billy's Mom's love".

BTW, it seems possible to me that a good Drive needs to include a desire, and that "love and admiration for noodles" is a crappy drive, as no desire is defined.  Just a thought.

-David

[Marshall Burns]

I've cooked up this for changing Drives:  simply sacrifice your remaining Drive Points, and you can change your Drive.  But you have to have at least 5 Drive Points to do this.

And, yeah, that was a crappy Drive.  But by the time I thought of "My name is Ramen Hotep, and I am a mummy covered in noodles," I was out of creative fuel   (We've been creating our characters immediately prior to play, with no forethought whatsoever)

-Marshall