[Agon] slayer hero vs minions

[Ben Robbins]

First off we've played three quests of Agon and we love's it. Really nice job of balancing all the mechanics.

Question: How does the damage bonus for Monster-Slayer/Beast-Slayer/Man-Slayer work versus minions? I made an ad hoc ruling that the slayer would get two kills instead of one, because if there is no bonus vs minions the trait seems pretty weak compared to the others.

[Aaron]

Didn't that make it too powerful?  I mean that is better than paying 2 divine points for an extra attack.  The character with the slayer attribute is getting +2 positioning bonus against minions of his slayer type which is pretty much on par with most bonuses.
I suppose it works out ok as long as you allow character that score extra damage through victories to kill multiple minions, though, as far as I can tell, extra damage doesn't do anything.

Aaron

[Ben Robbins]

(oops, leave out beast-master -- no damage bonus there)

It could be too powerful -- it was just an off the cuff solution, and we only had a monster-slayer not a man-killer so it didn't come up that much. Do you have a different idea?

I think the slayer/killer hero should get _something_ vs minions to cover the damage part of their trait, just so they are better than other heroes at their special thing. Right now indoors the far-reaching hero is better vs minions than the slayer, and outdoors the fleet-footed hero is better vs minions than the slayer and so on, which all seems backwards.

I also don't like that the hero is being stung by a meta/rule distinction. Player says "hey, I'm a monster-slayer! Those are monsters! This'll be great!" and Antagonist says "no sorry, they're minions so you only get your positioning bonus."

Another point is that the monster-slayer/man-killer traits are already weaker (or narrower) because the player often cannot manipulate things to bring their trait to bear. The clever-eyed hero can push for scheming rather than an open conflict, the fleet-footed hero can lure enemies into the open, but if there are no monsters in the quest the monster-slayer can't (easily) bring his trait into play. Probably less an issue with man-killer, since there are usually people around you can choose to fight, unless the quest is totally monster or beast based.

(I want to go print protest signs: "Equal rights for slayer/killers!", "Down with minion protectionism!")

[Aaron]

I was thinking about how you could add the extra damage to minions as I was doing my last post.  How about an extra attack against another minion in the same range band if you have damage left over.  One extra attack per point of extra damage, but only one free attack allowed per minion.  A bit like cleave from d20.  That would meant that a character with the killer ability would automatically get an extra attack when he downed a minion, and other character would get an extra attack if they had extra victories.  You would only allow a character to do this once per attack action though, so if the character generated excess victories on a followup attack there would be no bonus. 
I'll ask my guys next time we play what they think.

Aaron.

[Ben Robbins]

I like something along the lines of extra attack rather than extra automatic kill.

But if it is based on the total damage rolled or requires a first kill to get a second attack it breaks the rule of trait bonuses by not giving you a direct bonus, only giving you a bonus if you also have good scores in that ability or rolled well. A fleet-footed person always gets a bonus in fleet-footed tasks, they don't get only get an additional effect when they roll well or have high athletics. Subtle but important I think.

I would lean towards giving them a second attack regardless of how the first one went. An alternative would be something like giving them a +2 attacking minions.

I'm also hoping for some official word, since I think it needs some kind of rule change.

[John Harper]

Rules change... yeah. I think you're right. I once thought that the damage bonus for the slayers was so good that it balanced with everything else (and it is awesome) but I see your point.

Let's try this:

Man-Killer
+1 damage to humans
+2 to positioning roll when fighting humans
+2 to attack rolls vs. human minions. When attacking a group, you kill one minion per victory rolled.

Monster-Slayer
+1 damage to monsters
+2 to positioning roll when fighting monsters
+2 to attack rolls vs. monster minions. When attacking a group, you kill one minion per victory rolled.

Beast-Master
+2 to Hunt rolls
+2 to positioning roll when fighting beasts
+2 to attack rolls vs. beast minions. When attacking a group, you kill one minion per victory rolled.

[Mel White]

I know a Monster Slayer that is going to be very happy.

[Aaron]

And I an Amazonian man killer! 

[Ben Robbins]

I like it John.

You might want to leave out the Beast-Master since it doesn't get a damage bonus vs "full" beasts to start with, so it's back to the same problem of making a meta distinction between full and minion NPCs.

Beast-Master doesn't need the boost anyway, since the +2 Hunt can be used in lots of different ways. In play our group has come to recognize just how powerful a +2 bonus to any ability is, since you can bring it in as helping dice, on oaths, etc. Everybody wants the clever-eyed hero to come along on the quest...

[John Harper]

Yeah, maybe. I like it this way, though.

[Aaron]

Sorry to resurrect this older thread but I was wondering about these slayer bonuses in non-combat battles.
In my next session we will have 4 heroes.  One is a man slayer.  As they travel around a decedent city they will have to pass through a large group in the throes of orgy.  I thought I would have 8 minions in 4 groups of 2 battle the heroes, trying to entice them to join.  The heroes are all weapon skill and athletics through the roof but not alot in spirit, orate and insight.  This could be quite a dangerous "battle" and will be the first non combat battle they have engaged in.
The question is should the man slayer get the appropriate bonuses vs these "man" opponents.  Would a character with fleet footed get these bonuses since it is happening outside?
I thought he ability to use for this battle would be orate.
I'm inclined to give the man killer all the bonuses as I can imagine they would be hard hearted toward this foe.

Aaron