I need some help in condensing qualities -- some feedback please

[vgunn]

I need to condense down some of the qualities from Hither lands. But I do not want to go too rules light.

A problem I have is that all Silvan Elves did seem to have the qualities mentioned.

For instance here are the base qualities for Silvan elves:

* A Fey Look
Enduring Comfort (Cold, Heat, Fire, Pain, Poison)
Fair to Behold (2)
Fauna Kinship (Horses, Eagles)
Fleet of Foot
Attuned to the Forest
Ghosts Hold No Terror
Gift of Ingóle (Spells 1, Lore 1, Magic 2)
Gladden Spirit
* Lofty with Pride
* Look Down on Them
* Parted from Dwarves
Shadow and Threat
Star-lit Sight
Suffer No Ill-effects (Disease, Illness)
Swift to Heal
Wandering Respite
Woodland Refuge
Woven Words (Instrument, Sing)
Your Sense is Keen (Hearing 1, Sight 2)

* Negative qualities

Is this too many?

How would you trim/combine without being to abstract?

The game system is 2d6 roll high.

3 Core Aspects (Mind, Body, Spirit)
24 Skills (with specializations possible to narrow down the broad skill range)
Qualities (bought or coming from race/culture and can be either positive or negative)

[Vulpinoid]

How does this compare to other races?

If every race has 20 defining features, is it a problem, or is it just a rich and deep system?

If Silvan elves have 20 defining features, most races have 5, and humans have none (because they are the baseline character type)....then I can see a problem.

Instant things I'd say is that it looks (from first glances) like you're doubling up on quite a few of these traits.

For example...How is "Attuned to the Forest" different to "Woodland Refuge"?

Similarly "Gladden Spirit" and "Swift to Heal" immediately strike me as the same thing, but relating to the Spirit and Body attributes respectively...

The ultimate abstraction would be to simply include "Silvan Elf" as a trait on the character sheet, and have players remember why this is a bonus in some situations while being a flaw in other situations, but you've specifically indicated that you don't want lite rules. So this isn't a good option.

My best advice would be to consider why you put all of these traits into the game for this group...is it to make them unique?...is it to balance them against other groups in the world?...is it just because "that's what elves do!!"...?

Just some ideas...

V

[Paul Czege]

This doesn't help you, but I wanted to comment that I find your terminology for the various qualities very evocative. I want to play a character with qualities like Ghosts Hold No Terror, Lofty with Pride, and Woven Words.

Paul

[Darcy Burgess]

Hey vgunn,

Based on the very last line in your opening post, I imagine that the solution has kind of presented itself; the list you presented (may pared down a touch, as Vulpinoid suggested) becomes the menu.  Characters are built from a subset of the available options, but not all of them.

After all, not *every* Sylvan elf is fleet of foot, or laughs in the face of ghosts...

I second Paul's appraisal of your nomenclature.  What other races are you planning on using?

Cheers,
Darcy

[vgunn]

Thank you for the quick responses!

This is for Hither Lands: Roleplaying in Middle-earth, a game I have been working and reworking for years now. I finally have some time to devote to it, so I am going through the process of finding the right amount of detail without going too far. I prefer the lighter side of rules medium (Cinematic Unisystem, Silhouette, NWoD. I want to have some evocative labels, because it fits the setting and gives a narrative impression (though the actual mechanics are for the most part traditional).

As far as Middle-earth is concerned the idea of "greater" and "lesser" races remains a key focust of Tolkien's world, and therefore 'every' elf is indeed fleet of foot, and laughs in the face of ghosts. So there are some issues which make it a very unique setting.

Okay some further refining. A standard rule in the game for picking qualities (beyond those for race and culture) is for every 3, two can be positive and one negative. So I have mirrored this with the innate qualities. Keep in mind, I haven't added the negative qualities yet (3 for each with 1 being unique to the subculture), this would make it a total of 9 (6 positive / 3 negative).

Noldor
1 Art of Ingóle (Spells 2, Lore 3, Magic 3)
2 One With the World
3 Against Foes Seen and Unseen
4 Suffer No Ill-effects (Cold, Heat, Fire, Pain, Poison, Disease, Illness)
5 Your Sense is Keen (Hearing, Sight)
6 *Both Fair and Fell

Sindar
1 Art of Ingóle (Spells 2, Lore 2, Magic 2 )
2 One With the World
3 Against Foes Seen and Unseen
4 Suffer No Ill-effects (Cold, Heat, Fire, Pain, Poison, Disease, Illness)
5 Your Sense is Keen (Hearing, Sight)
6 *Woven Words (Instrument, Sing)

Silvan
1 Art of Ingóle (Spells 1, Lore 1, Magic 1)
2 One With the World
3 Against Foes Seen and Unseen
4 Suffer No Ill-effects (Cold, Heat, Fire, Pain, Poison, Disease, Illness)
5 Your Sense is Keen (Hearing, Sight)
6 *Under Tree and Leaf

*unique subculture quality

Art of Ingóle—Elves possess qualities which in the eyes of others seem 'magical', though they themselves do not think in these terms as such. These enchantments for Elves are merely natural abilities used for merriment and the crafting of things such as boats, bows, cloaks, ithildin, knives, lembas, miruvor and the like. The Art of Ingóle wielded by the Eldar is nearly effortless, coming much easier to them than to mortals and is almost completely untainted with malice or corruption. They use it to communicate with each other without speaking, to read another's heart or even foretell the future. Elves will shape, sing, or speak spells, lore or magic—though their preferred method is through song. In game terms, each subculture of the Elves have a score in spells, lore and magic—with the Noldor able to wield the greatest power.

One With the World—Elves are married to the world in which they live. This bound with Arda, allows them a kinship with nature and share feelings and thoughts with all good things, including beasts and even the trees. Their physical makeup allows them to bend the laws of world to their way, allowing them to run both swift and light beyond other race. Elves also do not sleep as mortals do, but instead rest and regain strength in only a few hours by letting their minds wander in a dreamlike trance. Their closeness also allows them to see as well on a starlit night as the race of Men would at the height of the day and allows an Elven character to ignore penalties for deeds during the night (though not in absolute darkness).

Against Foes Seen and Unseen—Elves can sense the presence of evil, power and tragedy. They know when their sanctuaries are trespassed by minions of the Shadow. The ghosts of men hold no scorn or terror to Elves and are immune to any fear effects they cause.

Suffer No Ill-effects—Being immortal, Elves do not become sick or suffer diseases. They also heal from wounds swiftly and feel no discomfort in cold or hot weather extremes—nor endure any ill-effects (penalties or harm) from such exposure.

Your Sense is Keen—Elvish eyes and ears see farther and hear better than those of Dwarves, Hobbits and Men. In game terms, Elves have a score in Sight and Hearing which provides a bonus on any related deeds.

*Both Fair and Fell (Noldor)—The Noldor are the fairest of all people to behold in Middle-earth. Their beauty is beyond what most mortals can comprehend. They also possess a fey light in their eyes which makes them terrifying to behold, especially if angered. Noldor having lived among the Valar across the Sea have an inner light and is a great power in opposing the malice of the Shadow—including the fear caused by the Nazgul.

*Woven Words (Sindar)—Renown for their gifts of music and song, Grey Elves can gladden and inspire with this talent. Sindar receive bonus points when attempting deeds playing with a musical instrument or through their voice in lays and song.

*Under Tree and Leaf (Silvan)—Wood-elves are masters of the forests and are experts in woodcraft along with treelore. All Silvan Elves are woodsy and receive bonuses to Survival Talent deeds while in forest sites.

[vgunn]

I really appreciate all the feedback. Very helpful for me.

Here is what I have come up with.

Lists of Conditions for Elves

Noldor
1 Art of Ingóle (Spells 2, Lore 3, Magic 3)
2 One With the World
3 Against Foes Seen and Unseen
4 Suffer No Ill-effects (Cold, Heat, Fire, Pain, Poison, Disease, Illness)
5 Your Sense is Keen (Hearing, Sight)
6 *Both Fair and Fell
7 The World Has Changed
8 Pardon of Mandos
9 *All Hope Has Faded

Sindar
1 Art of Ingóle (Spells 2, Lore 2, Magic 2 )
2 One With the World
3 Against Foes Seen and Unseen
4 Suffer No Ill-effects (Cold, Heat, Fire, Pain, Poison, Disease, Illness)
5 Your Sense is Keen (Hearing, Sight)
6 *Woven Words (Instrument, Sing)
7 The World Has Changed
8 Pardon of Mandos
9 *Leave and Lament

Silvan
1 Art of Ingóle (Spells 1, Lore 1, Magic 1)
2 One With the World
3 Against Foes Seen and Unseen
4 Suffer No Ill-effects (Cold, Heat, Fire, Pain, Poison, Disease, Illness)
5 Your Sense is Keen (Hearing, Sight)
6 *Under Tree and Leaf
7 The World Has Changed
8 Pardon of Mandos
9 *An Ancient Enmity

*unique to subculture

Boons Defined:

Art of Ingóle—Elves possess qualities which to others seem 'magical', though they themselves do not think in these terms as such. These enchantments are merely natural abilities used for merriment and the crafting of things such as boats, bows, cloaks, ithildin, knives, lembas, miruvor and the like. The Art of Ingóle wielded by the Eldar is nearly effortless, coming much easier than to mortals and is almost completely untainted with malice or corruption. They use it to communicate with each other without speaking, to read another's heart or even foretell the future. Elves will shape, sing, or speak spells, lore or magic—though their preferred method is through song. In game terms, each subculture of the Elves have a score in spells, lore and magic—with the Noldor able to wield the greatest power.
One With the World—Elves are married to the world in which they live. This bound with Arda, allows them a kinship with nature and share feelings and thoughts with all good things, including beasts and even the trees. Their physical makeup allows them to bend the laws of world to their way, allowing them to run both swift and light like no other race. Elves also do not sleep as mortals do, but instead rest and regain strength in only a few hours by letting their minds wander in a dreamlike trance.
Against Foes Seen and Unseen—Elves can sense the presence of evil, power and tragedy. They know when their sanctuaries are trespassed by minions of the Shadow. The ghosts of men hold no scorn or terror to Elves and are immune to any fear effects they cause.
Suffer No Ill-effects—Being immortal, Elves do not become sick or suffer diseases. They also heal from wounds swiftly and feel no discomfort in cold or hot weather extremes—nor endure any ill-effects (penalties or harm) from such exposure.
Your Sense is Keen—Elvish eyes and ears see farther and hear better than those of Dwarves, Hobbits and Men. In game terms, Elves have a score in Sight and Hearing which provides a bonus on any related deeds. In addition to their farseeing eyes, all Elves can see as well on a starlit night as the race of Men would at the height of the day and allows them to ignore penalties for deeds during the night (though not in absolute darkness).
Both Fair and Fell (Noldor)—The Noldor are the fairest of all people to behold in Middle-earth. Their beauty is beyond what most mortals can comprehend. They also possess a fey light in their eyes which makes them terrifying to behold, especially if angered. Noldor having lived among the Valar across the Sea have an inner light and is a great power in opposing the malice of the Shadow—including the fear caused by the Nazgul.
Woven Words (Sindar)—Renown for their gifts of music and song, Grey Elves can gladden and inspire with this talent. Sindar receive bonus points when attempting deeds playing with a musical instrument or through their voice in lays and song.
Under Tree and Leaf (Silvan)—Wood-elves are masters of the forests and are experts in woodcraft along with treelore. All Silvan Elves are woodsy and receive bonuses to Survival Talent deeds while in forest sites.

Banes Defined:

The World Has Changed—Immortality for all of its benefits, is not without consequence for the Elves. Whether by the sword or the slow decay of time mortals around them will die and there will be no comfort for Elves to ease this passing. Bound to this permanence, ages will pass until all the world has changed, but Elves will forever remain constant. It becomes a great burden for Elves as trees fade and the longer years of their lives are utterly spent. In a world where everything else ages and dies, this Elvish melancholy can lead to grief and despair.
Pardon of Mandos—All Elves still in the Hither Lands will feel an undeniable pull of Valinor and depart into the West at some point in their lives. They must heed this call of the sea for soon Middle-earth the become the domain of Men and the time of Elves will come to an end. It is fated for those Elves who remain to fade from the sight of Men. They will, over time, slowly become incorporeal spirits, in the world but not of the world.
All Hope Has Faded (Noldor)—Ever looking to the past, Noldor of the late Third Age view the Hither Lands as a place greatly diminished from earlier glory. Evidenced are deep feelings of contempt, disgust, pity and spite for lesser races which have developed over the passing of years.
Leave and Lament (Sindar)—Since Elves cannot relate with mortals and harbor deep resentment of the Gift of Man from Iluvatar—which is death the Sindar have begun to withdraw. They have lost interest in Middle-earth and view themselves almost as exiles, secluding themselves in their secret enclaves. With this isolation comes distrust and suspicion to others who cross their path or venture into their havens.
An Ancient Enmity (Silvan)—Thingol, an Elflord of Menegroth, was slaughtered by the Dwarves after they created the Nauglamir for him out of a Silmaril. It created great enmity between the Sindar of Doriath and the Dwarves forever more. When Oropher brought with him a number of Sindar Elves from Lindon to return the forests and the simple life natural to Silvan Elves, this hatred of the Dwarves was merged. Wood-elves harbour great suspicion and hostility of Dwarves and all suffer penalties to social reactions when dealing with their kind.

Now its just a matter of pluging in the innate conditions for other races. That and finalizing the actual mechanical bonus/penalty for the qualities.

Thanks again!

[vgunn]

I have worked up the conditions for Dwarves. I still need to figure out the mechanical bonus/penalties.

Should anything be moved around. My concern is mostly with 'More Hardily Than Other Peoples' and 'Make Light of Burdens'.

Any suggestions?

Lists of Conditions for Dwarves:

1 Nâla of Mahal (Spells 1, Lore 1)
2 More Hardily Than Other Peoples (Wounds, Fatigue, Starting Fire)
3 Make Light of Burdens (Cold, Domination, Heat, Illness, Pain)
4 Your Sense is Keen (Direction, Hearing, Sight)
5 Fear and Fued (Animals, Elves, Water)
6 Delve too Greedily (Covetous, Greed, Obsession) 



Boons

Nâla of Mahal—Dwarves are often portrayed as being non-magical or at the very least, shunning the use of magic in their craft. However, they can imbue their creations with spells and lore.  The consummate skill which the Dwarves bring to their enchantments can rival even the Noldor crafters with their expertise. The 'Path of  Aulë' is focused and limited in its application, mostly used in the smithing of armour and weapons. It is also used for cuts on gems, inscriptions in stone, machinery of toys, making of runes, and tracery on steel.
More Hardily Than Other Peoples—When the Dwarves were created by Aulë, the lands Middle-earth were still ruled by Melkor, and so he made them stalwart, sturdy and tireless in order to survive. When need is great, dwarven warriors can execute forced marches over great distances and rough terrain and still charge into battle. Dwarves also have great skill in starting fires, even in rainy or windy weather and receive a +2 to any roll to start a fire.
Make Light of Burdens—Dwarves are able to endure pain, suffering and harsh environments more than any other race. Dwarves are strong-willed, and steadfastly resist any efforts to control, dominate, or manipulate them.  They also rarely fall ill. As such, Dwarves have +1 to any resistance tests of cold, heat, illness, pain and domination.
Your Sense is Keen—Dwarves live in unforgiving environments. Driven by a desire to work and craft stone, gems and precious minerals, they make their homes in steep, rocky, damp and chilly places. While at underground sites, Dwarves receive a bonus to deeds and tests involving directional sense, hearing or sight.

Banes

Fear and Feud— Dwarves have a grave fear open water and will suffer a penalty to all deeds involving crossing rivers or open water, such as seafaring or swimming.
They also get along poorly with animals and do not keep dogs or ride horses.  An ancient enmity with the Elves has existed since 503 of the First Age, when at Sarn Athrad a combined force of Sindarin and Silvan Elves, counterattacked and slew the Dwarves to reclaim the Nauglamir. From this time forward they were parted from Elves and the feud  has lingered still into the waning days of the Third Age.
Delve too Greedily—All Dwarves have a lust for wealth. What was always a bane of their existance has been compounded by the forging of the Seven Rings which intensified Dwarves greed and their covetous desire to hoard  gold, jewels and precious metals.