dLITE: A setting without humans?

[zmobie]

I think what it boils down to is that even if you are playing a character that is decidedly non-human, it is interesting because of how it differs with a human. You want to play it because you are interested in the comparison to humanity. You want to play it because by veering away from humanity, you get a birds eye view of humanity. You can identify with the differences, and that makes it interesting.

I don't think in any of these examples we've trailed too far off of basic motivations that a human could have, but all of them differ in some way as to make them distinct.

I'm not talking about physiology at all. Physiology alters the mechanics of the game, but overall it doesn't give the character completely alien motivations.

When I say a character with almost no humanness, I refer back to another example in this thread of playing "the sun". How do you play something without motivations we cannot understand. A Hive mind seems like a proper example, or a being that can see more than 3 spacial dimensions, or in fantasy a completely "evil" being, one who's very nature is that of destruction.

As was said before in this thread, i think it's an interesting thought experiment, but in practice, as a game, it probably falls apart and you end up playing it like a human. If you end up playing it like a human, then why not just be something more human. Let the DM handle the weird stuff with some vigorous hand waving and appeals to "mystery".

[Lance D. Allen]

::jaw drops::

You start out with what seems like a strong support to my argument, and follow it naturally into what is probably the best counter-argument so far (IMO, of course).

My only answer to your "Why not...?" question, at this point, is to jut my jaw out stubbornly, and say "because."

More seriously, I understand that we humanize things by our very awareness of them. But I also believe that there are things that we consider quintessentially human that, in the theoretical diversity of self-conscious beings (theoretical because, as far as we know, there are no others), are simply universal aspects of sentience. Curiosity is one of them. Awareness of the Other is another. There is the ability to categorize. There is the ability to reason. There is the ability to solve problems. Maybe such consciousnesses would be so alien to us that these basic aspects wouldn't be recognizable, but I believe they would be there, nonetheless.

So even if I couldn't play such an alien consciousness, that doesn't mean I couldn't have fun trying.

[LandonSuffered]

Just picked up a copy of Albedo the other day and, nope...no humans anywhere in it. Not even hinted at (though players may suspect humans having some place in the game world's history).  And no, the game does not suffer at all for the lack of humans.

In fact, I was trying to think Albedo could be adapted to a different setting that didn't use anthropomorphized animals (it has such excellent rules for small-scale military skirmishes), but came to the conclusion that the character creation system (not to mention the game setting) would actually suffer if you took out the 'animals' unless you did an "all alien species" kind of thing...but when you start doing that, why not simply use anthropomorphized animals (after all, we all know immediately that a dog is more trustworthy than a cat and a mouse is going to have a HUGE chip on his little shoulder).  When you start making up aliens you end up spending a lot of time explaining the difference between a Zoot and a Whatsit (in fairly human terms, usually).

So no...especially with SciFi fantasy settings, there's no pre-requisite to include humans.  And while it can be helpful to players (who are human after all) to address alien characters in human terms, I don't think it's necessary...ESPECIALLY if there are no base-line humans in the game with which to draw comparisons.

But the game may be a little uncomfortable to some folks without that human "touchstone."

I know there has been some food for thought on this subject in other threads at the Forge.  I started one myself, here:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=16045.0

[visioNationstudios]

When you start making up aliens you end up spending a lot of time explaining the difference between a Zoot and a Whatsit (in fairly human terms, usually).

Bingo.  It may very well be that, in a real life situation, the concepts and ideals of a truly alien race are able to be grasped.  This could be a result of everyone processing things as their brain processes, or even potentially having the race explained by one of them.  Where it possibly could be falling apart is that in a book, with no real world examples to pull from, the author is forced to use terminology and metaphors that anyone, anywhere, would understand.  It waters down the potential for odd, yet accurate, descriptions and very much puts things in human terms.  So that we can all "get it".  Because really, in a sourcebook for a game, what's the point of putting in something that only a fraction of your players will ever comprehend?

I hadn't quite extrapolated that thought out as far as your simple statement did.  So thanks.  Also, thanks for the link.  Quite a nifty discussion you got going back then.