Even Dice - please critique my univeral system

[Danny]

Hello Everyone,

I came across a game system I wrote a few years back. After re-reading it I thought it had promise. I'd love to get some feedback on it if you have time to read 30 half-pages (meant to be a page folded in half)

The concept is simple, a game where you can use any dice you wanted at any time. For Example, when playing a ninja, you could roll all d4's if you wanted (which tend to look like the tacks that ninjas often toss behind them). Want to use all your cool red dice for your vampire character? How about those boxy d4's that look like runes for your mage character? Either way, just go for it!

I plan on spell checking the magic module and some settings that are already written, but for now, here's the core rules.

http://www.evendice.com

(please be brutal, it's the only way I'll find flaws)

THANKS!!!
~Danny

[brianbloodaxe]

(please be brutal, it's the only way I'll find flaws)

THANKS!!!
~Danny

Well OK then...

From the instant I started reading I was bewildered. Your choice of Stats confuses me and their descriptions don't actually help any. Oh and TLAs don't make anything easier to understand.
You say we can choose our own stats, or Dimensions, does everyone have to use the same ones? What happens if I want to use my Chi stat on someone who doesn't have a Chi stat? Does everyone need to take Body, Mind and Soul?
HOW many calculations do you expect me to make to figure out secondary stats? Eighteen!? And divisions of small numbers like that can get annoying.
And with Essence rated at about 9, split between three stats that means that everyone will have about either 3,3,3 in stats or 2,3,4. Not a huge range of options.

I want to say good things about your system too but I couldn't find any. That isn't as harsh as it sounds, it doesn't mean that there aren't any good points. I just don't understand what your game is for therefore I can't see what it will be good at.

That's the crux of it. I don't understand it enough to know what to do with it.

[Daniel B]

Hello Danny ..

despite Brian's roughness, I have to say I agree with his take on the stats. (Sorry but ya asked for it.)   They seem to be overly complicated, and simply complicated is bad enough. That .. and I felt the rest of the manual was a tiny bit patronizing because it seems like you're using the system to punish bad play styles instead of positively reinforcing good play. If you want to go that way, so be it, but in my opinion it's an inefficient use of energy.  It's like equipping a car with an emergency life-raft. Most people won't need it, and the people that do really deserve what they get because they were idiotic enough to get into that sort of trouble in the first place.

Also, I felt that putting the character's physical features and history in the game as "mechanics" (by implicitly asking players to use them, by including them in the manual and on the character sheet) was rather superfluous. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like you're including them just as a legacy from other roleplaying games, rather than towards any specific purpose. If they're to encourage roleplaying or something like that, I really don't think that's a good way of going about it.




All that aside, I saw a gem in the game. It was a shiny enough gem that I'd call the game a "Heartbreaker" by Ron's sense of the word as in his Heartbreaker articles on the Forge (and not as in the recent usage of the word in the forums). I am referring to the IXP mechanic.

(For other reading this post who don't want to wade through the 30page manual, XP is spent to power-up characters, as in many games. However, there are two kinds of XP: lasting xp (LXP), and immediate xp (IXP). Lasting XP is like traditional XP, but IXP is more like the Action Points of the Eberron setting of D&D v3.5, though with positive changes.)

Though you treat IXP as a useful thing in the game, I don't quite think you realize just how powerful they are. They should be a more central feature of the game. This mechanic is great, in my opinion, because they encourage players to really play, by which I mean, get their heads into the game at hand as it's happening. Action Points don't do this: there are too few of them, and players typically end up using them as 2nd chances rather than as "Heroics" devices. This is also as opposed to LXP (traditional XP), which players use to just stack up their characters between sessions and simply float through the games, more prone to rolling dice mindlessly.


Hopefully you're not crushed by the response :-S  Good luck,

Daniel

[Danny]

okay, someone on another forum pointed me at CutePDF Writer, so I've updated www.evendice.com to include PDFs if you're into that...

I was just going to give that update when I realized there were responses to my post... hmmm... seems like inde-rpgs.com didn't send me email reminders when people posted...

I'm going to re-read your responses so I can give a better response, but knowing that the stats are coming across as confusing is really good feedback.  (give me a little time to get you a good response as I need to run to work...)

AND THANKS FOR THE REPLIES!

[AJ_Flowers]

I think the game would benefit a lot from your explaining up front what the mechanic is meant to do and represent. It strikes me that you're trying to create a universal mechanic that will work "for anything," which is always a tough thing to do, usually gets pretty bloated, and can be kind of a hard sell.  Your initial examples in the first bit of the book involve ninjas, for example, but you don't get in to anything so concrete as ninjas for pages and pages. Instead you're asking me for information like eye color - how do I know whether or not that "matters" in the context of a game? Worst fears- will this be important in all games?

Showing me how to buy equipment before I have any idea what the world is like is pretty confusing. Maybe a chapter up front explaining the "kinds" of games you have in mind with this system and some example settings, even an example of play to draw someone in to wanting to read all this nitty gritty?

I stopped reading when I saw you were taking away XP for "bad roleplaying" and then trying to define what that meant. I wouldn't want to punish players this way.  The whole section reads as if you've played with a lot of bad gaming groups and comes across as really negative!

[Danny]

Okay, thanks for all this great feedback!  I think the first really big thing for me to take away here is: When I play with people, I skim through the rules and explain to them how things work.... it just really hit me that my presentation needs A LOT of work.  so that's good to know

At one point these rules had a lot of text for new rpg players and it got really really lengthy.... I decided to "boil it down" to just what was needed but I think I over-did it.  I think I might have destroyed any and all presentation, PLUS now it's all so boiled down a cryptic that I'm starting to think only I understand it.  Again, really good to know.

so, What was I going for with this system?

• universal with modular stats (the rules and the setting are separate.)
• rules for defining your own stat modules (if you look at the character sheet, it would be defining a new wedge to go in the circular breakdown of numbers.)
• rules for defining your own setting (these rules are not in the text you just read, and not 100% ready to be viewed.)

Of those 3 big tasks, I decided to focus on the "universal modular stats" part first (this is what you guys read).  I stripped my rules away from the setting... and now you guys noted that the first half of my character sheet feels out of place.  (very good feedback).

When I run the game, I improvise a lot and I feel like the rules help support that.  I start with, "what kind of stuff do you guys want in the setting?  what kind of world do you want to play in?" this leads me to ask myself "what stat modules are needed?"   Then when people fill out character sheets, I have them do the left side first because it really defines the character.  After that it's really easy to fill out the stats because all you're really doing it prioritizing based on the description you already wrote down.  So you could start with an Essence of 9 and ask yourself, what matters most to this character?  Mind, Body, Social? and you break down your 9 among those things.  After that, you do it again, for each Dimension you ask "what matters more to this character? Power or Control?"

So to answer brianbloodaxe's question about "what's the difference between 3,3,3 and 2,3,4", it gets reinforced when you break them into Power and Control. So for example, you might want a character who was equally good at everything (3,3,3), but you'd have to break each of those 3's into Power and Control... so you'd have to pick one of the following: 0,3; 1,2; 2,1; 3,0.  You'd have to decide if power or control was more important to you. 

For example (I'm going to pick power that's higher than control for easy comparison):

Essence 9 (split evenly)
Body 3

• Power: 2 --> roll 5 dices when doing a dead lift
• Control: 1 --> roll 4 dice when trying to catch a baseball

Mind 3

• Power: 2 --> roll 5 dices when trying to pass a math test
• Control: 1 --> roll 4 dice when trying to think quick on your feet

Social 3

• Power: 2 --> roll 5 dices when trying to catch everyone's attention with your grand entrance
• Control: 1 --> roll 4 dice when trying to manipulate the conversation to get the info you want to hear.

verses this:
Essence 9 (weighted from low to high)
Body 2

• Power: 2 --> roll 4 dices when doing a dead lift
• Control: 0 --> roll 2 dice when trying to catch a baseball

Mind 3

• Power: 2 --> roll 5 dices when trying to pass a math test
• Control: 1 --> roll 4 dice when trying to think quick on your feet

Social 4

• Power: 3 --> roll 7 dices when trying to catch everyone's attention with your grand entrance
• Control: 1 --> roll 5 dice when trying to manipulate the conversation to get the info you want to hear.

There ends up being a 2 die difference between the balanced 3,3,3 and the prioritized 2,3,4.  plus there's a huge difference between the second example's low and high rolls (2 dice vs 7 dice)

I find doing the description first it helps people lay down a character's stat numbers in a way that really sticks to the character when the description is written out first.  People have their own words staring back at them saying things like "Hobbies: loves to sing karaoke" and rather than lay down numbers they think will be best in combat, the lay down numbers that describe the character they are trying to make. ---After that, I tried to make rules that would support having characters who were more than just combat heavy. 

I was trying to make it so the rules weren't dominated by Combat as well as making it possible to use a high Mind or Social value effectively in Combat.  I wanted to allow the smart weakling kid to outsmart the big dumb jock in a way that causes the jock to hurt himself when he attacks.  I wanted to see a character who could taunt a big dumb jock and "win" the fight because the jock's ego and reputation was too bruised to actually fight in front of the crowd.  and I wanted those things to run off the same rules that combat runs off.  No special case stuff.

When working with generalized groups of stats, it seemed natural to use the words "Power" and "Control".  But I usually give the example that Body's Power is much like Strength and Body's Control is much like Dexterity.  That's what led to giving a bunch of names for all the different stat that ultimately just came across as totally confusing...

Do you think I should remove those specific names and just stick with Power and Control for all my groups of stats?  Do you think Power and Control are too vague when describing things like: Body; Mind; Social; Magic; Tech Implants; Werewolf; or any other group of stats a setting might cook up?

What do you think of the words "Body, Mind and Social" vs "Physical, Mental, and Social"?

You guys bring up some good points about the negative xp rules.  I'll rewrite/remove that.

In the end, I was trying to get the core rules written --then I was going to write the rules for "Creating Your Own Stats" and "Creating Your Own Settings"... aside from the reworking I'll be doing to the text, maybe I should hold off the next public release until I have those two Headings also written out (beyond my current first draft).

In the end, I was going for rules that supported these things:
1. No Lists to constantly look stuff up in (no skill lists, no item lists, no roll modifier lists)
2. Modular Stats (no crazy special case rules, all stats work off the same rules)
3. Always feel like you have a chance (constant stream of points to spend on extra dice)
4. Teamwork works (it's worth teaming up, it's worth helping each other)
5. Self Balancing (yes you can be an Wizard who's learning to embrace their inner Cleric, but having Body, Mind, Social, Magic, and Spiritual Connection stat groups means you will be splitting your Essence among 5 stats groups... you're spreading yourself thin if you have too many stat groups)

brianbloodaxe, again, do you think I should just drop all the extra stat names and just stick with Power and Control? 

ShallowThoughts, thanks.  I'll pull the negative role playing rules in favor of more positive examples.  Also, thanks for noticing the IXP, I wasn't sure if people were going to tune into that.  It's great for creating intense situations that *don't* kill the players because they can pay for more dice when attempting critical rolls.  Plus you're constantly gaining XP as the game is played (not just at the end), so people stay more involved and get excited with "YES! one more point of XP, now I can afford 3 bonus dice!"

AJ_Flowers, thanks.  Maybe I do need to write more than just "How to make your own Stat Groups" and "How to make your own setting" in my next release... maybe a bunch of examples are a wise thing to include.  Thanks for pointing that out.  And again, the negative XP... yeah that's looking like I crossed a line with most people.  I'll pull it.

HOWEVER, what did you guys think of The Lethal Modifier (page 16)?  I've seen a couple breakdowns in communication where a player insists on doing something even though the GM is trying to warn them about the danger...  I was just trying to find a way to say "hey, wake up, I don't think you realize what you're saying"... but now I'm wondering if it's something that would be better in some "how to be a good GM" book (which I don't have any intention of writing )

thanks again everyone!  this really was a lot of great feedback.
~Danny
(sorry so long!  thank for reading! )

[AJ_Flowers]

HOWEVER, what did you guys think of The Lethal Modifier (page 16)?  I've seen a couple breakdowns in communication where a player insists on doing something even though the GM is trying to warn them about the danger...  I was just trying to find a way to say "hey, wake up, I don't think you realize what you're saying"... but now I'm wondering if it's something that would be better in some "how to be a good GM" book (which I don't have any intention of writing )

I am not sure if I get it, but maybe it's your example that is the issue.

"A character decides to get out of the car and look for clues. The GM says, you'll have to roll to get out of the car, and there will be a Lethal Modifier..." (implied, but not stated in the text at this point: ...because the car is still moving).  So why on earth can't the GM just say "The car isn't at its destination yet, wait until it is before you get out?" I can't see any way this would be miscommunicated as anything else.  Maybe it's a very bad example for a perfectly OK rule?  Or maybe you're trying to take a stance where "always say yes or 'yes but' to the players," which is an adage that I've heard, is taken to a weird extreme to add "...even if they're acting on some miscommunication from you that would change the situation and thus their action."

Otherwise it does kinda just read as a negative thing to get the players to play the way you "want" them to, even though the text specifically denies it's that thing.

[brianbloodaxe]

OK the Body&Mind&Social with Power&Control set up makes more sense to me now that I see how you intend to use it. I would go with Physical&Mental&Social though, it has a nicer sound to it and it is (IMO) more generic for your generic game. And would Power&Finesse be better than Power&Control?

I would suggest that you alter your Mental Power and Mental Control definitions though. Mental Control should cover all the various things that Intelligence and Wits normally do. I would think that doing a Maths test would be mental control, not power. I would have thought that Mental Power would be your character's Willpower equivalent.

[Danny]

Thank AJ_Flowers, I think I'm going to pull that one too.

brianbloodaxe, I made a character generator so you could see how the numbers affect eachother:
http://www.evendice.com/character_creator/

also, good point with the Willpower

[Danny]

Okay, here's my current changelist for my next release   Thank you all for the great feedback it was really wonderful to have everyone's input!

• [ ] make easier to read (currently feels like a math book.)
  
  
     
  • [ ] a chapter to give an overview of the main points in the system (what makes it unique)
       
  • [ ] give each chapter has a standard "tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em; "tell 'em"; "tell 'em what you told 'em" approach
       
  • [ ] summary to every chapter with a quick list of the numbers it provided.
       
  • [ ] explain the order and pacing of character creation so it doesn't seem like a bunch of silly description followed by number crunching.
       
  • [ ] make it more clear that Mind 3 and Control 2 means you're rolling 5 dice + skill dice (so the numbers don't seem so low and useless)
       
  • [ ] make it more clear that IXP should feel like a constant stream of points to gain and spend.
       
  • [ ] Mind, Body, Social --> Mental, Physical, Social
    
• [ ] remove
  
  
     
  • [ ] remove negative xp
       
  • [ ] remove leathal modifier
       
  • [ ] remove any other negative (poss. condencenting or patronizing) text
       
  • [ ] remove words like "strength". It's confusing. Just go with Power and Control
    
• [ ] add in next release (mostly have 1st drafts need to really clean it up and add it)
  
  
     
  • [ ] add chapter "how to make your own stat groups"
       
  • [ ] add chapter "how to make your own settings"
       
  • [ ] more examples of play
       
  • [ ] more example character sheets
       
  • [ ] more example modules
       
  • [ ] more example setting summarys
    
• [ ] have to think about
  
  
     
  • [ ] Should "how to buy equipment (and character creation) come before or after explaining situation rolls?
    

[Danny]

oops, the forum ate my indenting and I can't edit the post... here it is again:

• [ ] make easier to read (currently feels like a math book.)
• ....[ ] a chapter to give an overview of the main points in the system (what makes it unique)
• ....[ ] give each chapter has a standard "tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em; "tell 'em"; "tell 'em what you told 'em" approach
• ....[ ] summary to every chapter with a quick list of the numbers it provided.
• ....[ ] explain the order and pacing of character creation so it doesn't seem like a bunch of silly description followed by number crunching.
• ....[ ] make it more clear that Mind 3 and Control 2 means you're rolling 5 dice + skill dice (so the numbers don't seem so low and useless)
• ....[ ] make it more clear that IXP should feel like a constant stream of points to gain and spend.
• ....[ ] Mind, Body, Social --> Mental, Physical, Social
• [ ] remove
• ....[ ] remove negative xp
• ....[ ] remove leathal modifier
• ....[ ] remove any other negative (poss. condencenting or patronizing) text
• ....[ ] remove words like "strength". It's confusing. Just go with Power and Control
• [ ] add in next release (mostly have 1st drafts need to really clean it up and add it)
• ....[ ] add chapter "how to make your own stat groups"
• ....[ ] add chapter "how to make your own settings"
• ....[ ] more examples of play
• ....[ ] more example character sheets
• ....[ ] more example modules
• ....[ ] more example setting summarys
• [ ] have to think about
• ....[ ] Should "how to buy equipment (and character creation) come before or after explaining situation rolls?