Vice vs Virtue

[cra2]

Need help with this mechanic idea...

I took an old TSR Boot Hill module and replaced the resolution system with something fast - a trimmed down version of the Fuzion rules.

But I wanted more.  A personalization of the PCs that could be portrayed in play and on the PC sheets.

So I thought what about their progression between their Vice and their Virtue?

I told each player to select a Vice from the 7 Cardinal Sins (lust, greed, sloth, etc).  Each player had to be different.
That would be the Vice their PC struggles with.
They then had to make their PCs guilty of some crime that landed in an Old West prison.

The impetus for the game was that a rich mining company owner would get the governor to pardon them if they'd work for him.  His task was for them to go to a boomtown out West and clean up the town.  The rampant lawlessness was cutting into his profits.  So he was going to hand these convicts guns and a train ticket and send them to a pre-statehood boomtown full of temptation and crime (a la Deadwood, the HBO series).

I wanted it to be each individual player's choice as to how they'd execute this mission in a territory where the only law was written by whomever has the biggest gun.

They could see this as a chance to revel in their vices.  Or a chance to redeem themselves and bring law & order to the citizens of this town.

So I'm thinking I should put a 10pt scale across the top of their PC sheets and had them put the name of their Vice on one end and the name of the corresponding Virtue on the other (lust vs chastity, for example).

Then I should have each player make up a few examples of what their PC could do to fall victim to their Vice, along with an associated point value.

For example, for Greed the Player might put:
1 pt - swipe something unattended
2 pt - steal from someone's person
3 pt - break into a locked place and steal a valuable

During play, each time their PC commits a related act, they get that many Vice points which can only be spent for selfish things like bonuses to your rolls or harming others (PCs and NPCs).
And, they have to change their current position on the Vice vs Virtue scale at the top of their PC sheet - indicating their slow descent into total loss of control over their demons.

Each time they resist a GM-induced temptation related to their Vice (Willpower check, for example), they earn a single Virtue point which can only be spent to aid others (PCs and NPCs).
And they can slide their position further along the scale towards their Virtue - indicating their mastery over their demons and reintegration into society.

This reminds me a bit of Mountain Witch's "trust" and FATE's "aspects."
And I know that Dust Devils (which I haven't read) is a western that has to do with your demons.

But more important - I don't know if this idea has any "bite."
I know that when I present the idea of the guilty but redeemable PCs given almost DitV-like carte blanche to solve a town's problems, the Players get all excited.  But I don't know if the Vice vs Virtue mechanic, as I've described really does anything more than add more clutter to track.

At first glance, what are your thoughts?
And/or do you know of a simple system that's already in place that better captures the idea?

Thanks so much!

[Luke]

Oh man, I hate jumping on a First Thoughts thread with game recommendations, but your idea has been done well more than once.

Dust Devils, Dust Devils, Dust Devils.
http://www.indiepressrevolution.com/xcart/search.php?mode=search&page=1

And Dogs in the Vineyard
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/games/unstore/game/1

[cra2]

I'll have to look at Dust Devils.

But I have looked at Dogs and I don't see how it relates beyond it being a Western and you're goal is to clean up a town.
(There are lots of westerns, and there are lots of "clean up a town" games/modules.)

Where does Dogs track your personal journey in fighting your own demons?

[Luke]

Initiation scene and fall out, fall out, fall out.

Your personal demons are largely frontloaded in dogs, too. You get a lot of stuff to struggle with from the tenets of the religion.

[Lance D. Allen]

The idea of mechanically tracking the status of your soul on a continuum between vice and virtue is very similar to Sorcerer's Humanity. One of the primary differences there is that you define Humanity for the campaign, and no matter what else you do, certain things will have certain effects on your Humanity (binding a demon always has a chance of lowering your Humanity, for instance)

One problem I see with the initial system you've proposed is that there is no reason to go one way or the other, no consequences for good or bad behavior. Also, a person might be an otherwise very decent person, except in the indulgence of their particular Vice. I may swipe valuables (which is less greed than larceny, really) but I might rescue a young woman from being raped by miners. I might be a regular patron at the local brothel, but I treat the girls nice, and I donate to the local orphanage.

Basically, it's got no bite.

[cra2]

One problem I see with the initial system you've proposed is that there is no reason to go one way or the other, no consequences for good or bad behavior.

the results of playing into (or opposing) your vice are mechanical and concrete - points that can be used to alter die rolls.
The perceived benefits you get are your demon (your addiction) seducing you.

Also, a person might be an otherwise very decent person, except in the indulgence of their particular Vice.

exactly.
The scale seems to represent your personal struggle with that one vice.
You may be able to get drunk every weekend and control your life just fine, but every time your buddy has a single beer he slips closer and closer to the edge of the abyss.

I may swipe valuables (which is less greed than larceny, really) but I might rescue a young woman from being raped by miners.

Right.
You can be a heroine addict who pulls children out of burning homes.
I don't understand the point.

And swiping valuables IS the crime, not the motive.  So whether you call it larceny - a form of theft - or stealing doesn't matter.
It's the players' choice as to how his PC struggles with one of the 7 Deadly Sins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins
That's why the player creates the sample list of ways in which his PC struggles.
Different PCs would struggle with Pride differently.

I might be a regular patron at the local brothel, but I treat the girls nice, and I donate to the local orphanage.

Right.  If Lust wasn't an issue for you, resisting the brothel (for example) might not be a challenge or issue for you at all.
Whereas another player who chose Lust for his Vice might say that every time he sees a brothel he has to make a Willpower check or he'll descend one step further into his former, debaucherous, hedonistic ways that will end up with him penniless in the gutter.

Basically, it's got no bite.

True.  There's something missing and I'm not sure what it is.

[cra2]

Initiation scene and fall out, fall out, fall out.
Your personal demons are largely frontloaded in dogs, too. You get a lot of stuff to struggle with from the tenets of the religion.

I'll have to re-read Dogs because I'm only barely familiar.
But the actual play I listened to didn't relate the initiation, fall out, OR rules of the faith to the PCs' personal demons.
Initiation was a random hazing/skills challenge.
Fall out was a physical/emotional effect of having been punched in a fight.
And the Faith was what you (the individual) makes of it.  Didn't require or encourage any personal struggle with a Vice.

But I'll take your word that it's in there and re-read the rulebook.

[Lance D. Allen]

So, wait.. Are you saying that as you slip further into your vice, your morality overall decays?

'cause that has bite, if it can be encouraged/enforced.

No, you can't be the lecherous guy who's JUST a lecher, because Lust is the demon that rides you.

No, you can't be the greedy guy who's JUST miserly and ungenerous.. because Greed is the demon that tempts you.

When you give in to your Sin, you become a nastier person overall. Now I can see the struggle.

Also, the comment about greed/larceny: Theft doesn't necessarily align with greed. A greedy person isn't necessarily compelled to steal. The greedy person doesn't let go of what he's got. The greedy person is the person who takes more than his share, but that's not the same as stealing. The greedy person always wants more, but theft is such a minor, and largely ineffective way to get more.

[Mike Sugarbaker]

A Dirty World would be another game to look at, for how it deals with opposed scales (and vice and virtue).

[cra2]

So, wait.. Are you saying that as you slip further into your vice, your morality overall decays?.

No, that's not what I said - except in the extreme.
I said that if you totally embrace your Vice - by moving all the way to that end of the scale (vice vs virtue) - you'd lose control of your PC.
The demon would consume you.
Perhaps like in Contenders - how if your Hope is greater than your Pain you get the happy ending and if your Pain is greater than your Hope you get the tragic ending.

'cause that has bite, if it can be encouraged/enforced.
No, you can't be the lecherous guy who's JUST a lecher, because Lust is the demon that rides you.
No, you can't be the greedy guy who's JUST miserly and ungenerous.. because Greed is the demon that tempts you.
When you give in to your Sin, you become a nastier person overall. Now I can see the struggle.

I don't see how you can make the player roleplay any such attitude or behavior.

About the only mechanical correlation I can think of, in terms of your slide towards your depravity, would be that the "willpower" check to resist your Vice would get harder the further you slid.  Example - on a scale of 1-10, if your Vice was only a 3 you'd only need to beat a 3 on a d10 to resist.  Whereas if your Vice was 10, you'd need to roll a 10 to resist.

Also, the comment about greed/larceny: Theft doesn't necessarily align with greed. A greedy person isn't necessarily compelled to steal. The greedy person doesn't let go of what he's got. The greedy person is the person who takes more than his share, but that's not the same as stealing. The greedy person always wants more, but theft is such a minor, and largely ineffective way to get more.

Those are valid opinions.
I wouldn't dare try to write a codex of what behaviors constitute what sins.
That's why I said the players themselves will write their own interpretation of how their PC struggles with their vice.
They're like listing roleplaying tags for yourself - that have some mechanical punch to them.

e.g.
Pride:
1 pt every time I boast about myself before a group
2 pt every time I prove someone wrong before a crowd
3 pt every time someone begs for my assistance

[Simon C]

Hi,

I think this is an interesting idea.  It seems like you're not quite getting the advice you need from this thread.

This thread: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=23067.0 really helped me understand the difference between really effective mechanics for this (like Sorcerer, Dust Devils, and so on), and ones that suck (like Vampire, in my opinion).

A key concept here is the "fruitful void".  I can't explain it very well myself, but there's a great link in the thread I linked you to.  Dogs is a great example of it.  The reason you don't see any mechanics for "Sin" and "Virtue" in dogs, and your personal demons aren't marked on your character sheet is because the whole game is a mechanic for dealing with sin and virtue, authority and power.  The really important stuff happens in the space between the mechanics. 

So, in the context of your game, having a "Vice" and a "Virtue" on your character sheet isn't, by itself, going to make those things important to your game (as I think you understand).  I think an important aspect of dealing with premise (as this mechanic does) is that the game can't tell you which is the right answer.  Either succuming to your vice, or overcoming it, need to be equally valid choices in the game.  What the game needs to reward, in my opinion, is not maintaining your position on the scale, but movement in either direction along the scale.

Some of the stuff you're saying reminds me of "Keys" in The Shadow of Yesterday (which is a freee game, so you should totally check it out).  One of the things a lot of people seem to miss about that mechanic is that Keys reward you for playing to a concept (like playing greedy if you have the Key of Greed), but they also reward you for playing against the concept (with the "Buyoff").  I think that reading more about Keys would give you some good ideas for your game.