dodge/parry mechanic trouble.

[Necromantis]

I will try and be clear here for what I am wanting to do.

I am very certain as to how I want this to work, but I am having trouble wrapping my brain around it. Perhaps several brains are needed.

In my game "A Time of Steel and Staves"  I will be utilizing these features.

An armor class - Armor protects explicitly - meaning that if either protects you fully or not at all. (not damage dampening - at least not as i have seen in other systems-->chainmail dampens damage done by X amount)
a chance for parrying attacks -  this is based on a characteristic (precision + perception)
a chance for dodging attacks -  this is based on a characteristic (agility + perception)

The problem I am having is I want attacker to roll once vs Armor class (though I don't like the term - we all know what it means)
on a d20
I would love for that to determine if the character dodges the strike as well.
Thing is, I hate the idea of just adding a parry or dodge bonus to the AC.
I dont really want the attackee (is this even a word?) to have to roll for their parry or dodge - id like for it to be passive or static or whatever.

There will be a system in place that determines armor damage.
so many hits = a rent in the armor. - rents in the armor lower its effectiveness (therefore its AC) until repaired.

if the character dodges or parrys - there will be no hits/dents/rents in the armor.

As my desires stand. I see only two choices. Neither I am super happy with. and of course being super happy is the purpose in my designing this blasted game in the first place.
the choices I see are:

1. Make armor effect how much damage is taken from a hit. and have parry/dodge effect "to hit" chance (basic act as AC does in AD&D) - this is really involved (or would be with my group) Called shots to arm pits and eye holes and "how did he hit me with that blowgun dart if I am in platemail without calling his shot?)
and besides that I have played games like this and it seems just as unrealistic as making armor completely effective (all dmg or none)
so I'd prefer to keep AC dictating the "to hit" - i think realism has just got to go here. I think fun must reign.

2. The other option is for the the Attackee (theres that ?word? again) to make a parry/dodge roll upon being attacked (from the relative front at least)

Heres the beginnings of a 3rd idea (just came into me head)

we'll call the combatants BOB and JIM...  for ease

BOB attacks JIM
both roll a d20
BOB's represents his attack roll
JIM's represents his parry roll ----------as he can choose either parry or dodge - and he is better at parry (he states "parry" as he rolls)
if BOB's roll beats JIM's parry then BOBs attack makes it through JIMs 1st defense
That same number (BOBs roll) is compared to JIMs Armor Class (last defense) - if It Beats that number as well then JIM Loses Hit Points

If the parry/dodge is unsuccessful - the armor will take a "dent" -- so many dents (depending on armor) will cause a rent
(also a critical strike will cause a rent / as well as something like a ballista bolt or something)
rents worsen armor class until repaired

That could work if I can get the AC numbers in the right place.

I'd welcome some insight/corrections/suggestions.

[Jeff Russell]

Howdy Necromantis,

    I don't know how your stats (like perception and agility for 'dodge') are going to work otherwise and therefore what kind of scaling considerations you have, but the first way to work this that comes into my mind is that you have a listed static "armor value", "dodge value", and "parry value". You default to using the best one (or maybe your worst one?) as your opponents target number to hit you. But when you go into a combat round, you can declare that you are actively parrying/dodging/balanced, each of which would grant a temporary bonus to one of the defensive values. Maybe that bonus comes straight out of your normal attack value, or else you have to give up an attack that round or something.

The only other thing I can think of is to use a tiered approach. So, say Bob's 'dodge value' is 13, his 'parry value' is 15, and his armor value is 16. Let's see what a few rolls of Chuck's might equal:
- He rolls a 12: Bob dodges him
- He rolls a 14: Bob doesn't dodge, but he successfully parries
- He rolls a 16: The blow gets through but is blocked by the armor (possibly causing rents and such as you mentioned)
- He rolls an 18: Normal hit, full damage, et cetera

Does anything in there sound like the direction you're trying to go?

[Ar Kayon]

You could make the dodge/parry value a static number, just like armor class, and then compare the degree of success against the armor.

Example:
I make my attack against you: 1d20+5 vs. your defensive value of 15.  I roll an 18 (degree of success +3), but your knight is fully decked out in plate armor.  It was a good hit, but the round plate around the armpit deflected the blow (armor table vs. sword dictates no damage to combatant or armor integrity).  I strike again, and this time score a 20; a heavy swing of the bastard sword which makes a dent in the helmet and stuns you from the concussive force (armor table vs. sword dictates majority of damage was dampened and a dent was caused in the armor).

[andrew_wright]

Hi,

I have often contemplated the merits of having so many defensive systems, such as in D&D or in your game. It most certainly is difficult to find the perfect 'set' of defensive skills vs offensive skills.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you want here (please correct me in that case), but it seems like you want a more streamlined game. In that case I would either:

1) Drop Armor Class being random. That just adds another dice on the table.

or

2) Remove either Parry or Dodge. To be honest, they don't seem that different at all except for using different stats. Still, you can solve that by say, making Dodge determined by (1/2 Precision + 1/2 Agility + 1 Perception).

I would probably do both. But, I like my games to be fast paced, focusing more on the story and characters and less on technical matters. Hopefully this has given you something to think about it in that regard.

Cheers!

[Jim D.]

I'm in the midst of testing a system myself, and I'll throw in my plans with armor and see if that helps you at all.  I'm using an attack roll vs. defense roll system, but if you want static defense stats, that's fine too.

How I do it:

Attacker rolls 1d10 + attack bonus (Strength, Speed, or Perception depending on attack form.)
Defender rolls 1d10 + defense bonus (Speed, always, potentially reduced due to encumbrance from equipment or armor penalties.)

Armor has two values:  Armor Rating, and Armor Strength.  Armor Rating deals with how much of the body is covered, Armor Strength is how resistant it is to damage.  (e.g. half-plate has low AR but high AS, while full-body leather armor has high AR but low AS, etc.)

If attack roll > defense roll:  margin of success = attack - defense.
If margin of success <= armor rating, damage = power - AS.  Otherwise, armor doesn't help.

Effectively, armor slows you down but reduces damage from all attacks.

In your game, you could do the very same thing with static defense values.  The Defense value relies only on the character's skill, while armor deflects damage if the attack roll is X or less higher than Defense.  It's like Jeff's method, but without relying on a defense roll, which you've expressed is undesirable for you.  Damage to armor could be represented by a decrease either in AR or AS, depending on your preference.

[Locke]

well with a d20 you have 20 points of resolution.  if your system is an opposing rolling system you could roll any die such has d6's or d4's...

the d20 only matters when factoring bonus.  if your character's gain +10 bonus than using a d6 system is a bad idea and a d20 would be better.

d20 can be dangerous since there isn't a bell curve involved when rolling, therefore you can have vast number swings when making these opposed rolls.  Think about it.  A spell caster might have +5 to parry while a fighter might have +10 to hit.  This is essentially a straight +25% chance for the fighter to hit.  You are just replacing the d100 with a d20.  So be sure to use this as a way to determine how much bonus each thing gets and how often you want the fighter to hit the spell caster.

My system uses a similar mechanic of
1. attacker actively attacks
2. defender actively defends
3. if hit the defenders armor tries to protect him & the attacker must use his STR to beat an arbitrary armor value

Since you are using a d20 i would suggest using a trample system to mitigate the swings in rolling.  I would set the system like this:
- long sword: damage = 3 + 1/2
- dagger damage = 2 + 1/2
- rapier damage = 1 + 1

Now the  fraction or second number is what I call overfire.  The attacker rolls a 11 the defender rolls a 2.  The attacker has an advantage of 9.  Therefore using a longsword he would do 2 damage for the first point and another damage for every other point.  So the defender would be subject to 9 damage.  A glancing hit would cause a rapier to do less damage but a strong hit a rapier would do more damage.  So now you are adding layers to where each weapon is strengths and weaknesses and different build types would want to use one over another weapon.

I would then set up a threshold for each armor to determine the dents and rends.  Also I would say each suit has an absorption.
- chain mail: (2 rends [7]; 4 absorb)
- plate mail (4 rends [9]; 7 absorb)

So if the defender was wearing chain he would take 5 damage & his armor would take a rend point due tot he fact that its rend threshold has been surpassed.


What overfire does is mitigate the damage on a strong hit, but still applies damage on a weaker one as well and allows the chance to damage highly defensive armors on a good hit.

Also you could have powers that add to any of these points.  For example "Render" could add +2 ghost damage that applies to rending armor only.  This would leave room for another power called "Reaper" that causes +1 damage when an armor's threshold has been surpassed.

[Necromantis]

Howdy Necromantis,

    I don't know how your stats (like perception and agility for 'dodge') are going to work otherwise and therefore what kind of scaling considerations you have,

I haven't quite worked this all out either.
Everytime I get something worked out - i run into a snag and have to revamp the actual numbers.
but Its basic premise is something like this.
I have 11 Characteristics that cover all (well enough for me) the aspects of a person.
might - physical strength
prowess - natural instincts
precision - control over the body
agility - speed, flexibility, balance
forbearance - pain threshold, will power
heartiness - health, fitness
perception - awareness of surroundings
knowledge - things learned - or rememered
reasoning - logic, puzzling, creativity
communication - leadership, empathy
appeal - cleanliness, comeliness, smells, style.

out of these agility precision and perception deal with dodge and parry.
perception because you cant dodge/parry something you dont see coming
(therefore one cannot dodge/parry if attacked from behind/etc)
charts are in the works (numbers ever changing)

for a Parry/dodge bonus under perception
and a parry bonus under precision
and finally a dodge bonus under agility.
skill points (added throughout levels) can buy certain skills (some skills act like feats in other games - but that gets involved)
things like distraction, Tumbling, or practiced weapon- main-guache/off hand parrying will offer bonuses as well
You will add these bonuses to a roll (hopefully d20)
and this will be your parry or dodge defense (or value).
or thats at least how id like it to work.

but the more I think about it the more I like the roll aspect of it. People mess up. even skill people. thats where the dice roll would come in.

i have come to realize that mine is a game of large bonuses too.
which makes the players think of themselves as badasses (eventhough they may no be)
which is a good thing.
"yeah... my bonus is +13, I'm a total badass and only lvl3 ... what do you mean I need a 19 to hit? its a effing kobold"

lol

The only other thing I can think of is to use a tiered approach. So, say Bob's 'dodge value' is 13, his 'parry value' is 15, and his armor value is 16. Let's see what a few rolls of Chuck's might equal:
- He rolls a 12: Bob dodges him
- He rolls a 14: Bob doesn't dodge, but he successfully parries
- He rolls a 16: The blow gets through but is blocked by the armor (possibly causing rents and such as you mentioned)
- He rolls an 18: Normal hit, full damage, et cetera

Does anything in there sound like the direction you're trying to go?

Well honestly no.
But I do kind of like it.
Something to think about while crunching the numbers.

I didnt think Id have to be a damned mathematician when I started creating this game. 
haha - good thing i did good in math eh?



I meant to do a play by play quote and answer on all the posts but time runs away.

I will say that all the suggestions were pretty amazing. especially since I was in a box on figuring this all out and couldnt see much choice or many options.
You guys really did help. But Now i have a ton to think about ponder and test
i am sure my wife is sick of being my Ginnie-pig.

I am going to look at all the suggestions - try some out. crunch some numbers and see which ones fit best with the rest of my system.

thanks guys.
Ill keep reading the suggestions if you guys post them up. and update when/if i figure something out.


Necro

[Necromantis]

You will add these bonuses to a roll (hopefully d20)
and this will be your parry or dodge defense (or value).
or thats at least how id like it to work.

I meant to say.

Add them to a Base defense of some sort
not a roll (hopefully d20)

then go on to say.

but the more I think about it the more I like the roll aspect of it. People mess up. even skill people. thats where the dice roll would come in.

then add

so more like this now

You will add these bonuses to a roll (hopefully d20)
and this will be your parry or dodge defense (or value).
or thats at least how id like it to work.

but i muddled it in my hasty proofread