War question

[Nick the Nevermet]

I haven't seen a fun socio-political question in a while, so......

If I remember correctly, there are two major military conflicts starting up just as the official campaign year hits.  One is Gelure launching an expansionist move thats bound to make Xanarium, Stahl, and Cyrinthmeir freak out (Other countries like Farrenshire would like too, but they're busy being conquered right now).  The other is Otamarluk doing a 'counter-crusade.'

So... how do you guys think it will turn out?

How much success will Gelure have?  Will they keep any land?  Lose land?  Will its self-proclaimed Infernal leader remain in power?  How will his war affect Mainlund?

On the other side, how far will Otamarluk push into Mainlund?  Is Taveruun toast?

These questions go toward a belief I have that I think that Wyerth mirrors Earth only in the rennaisance period it emulates, but not after.

Opinions?

(PS - I have dibs in 5 years for helping make the Napoleonic TROS setting :-D )

[Mike Holmes]

This is really hard to say. One thing that the book does not give us is demographics, and hard economics. One only gets a general idea. The only sensible predictions that one can make require this info. Worse, one cannot predict the effects of "great men". The leaders and generals that will come up. Oh, we know a bit about Gelure's leadership, and can predict a bit o their effect, but what about their opponents. To say nothing of Ottomarluk (if it's anything like the RL turkish empire, it will depend a lot on whether or not the Sultans have begun to assassinate their own competent progeny to avoid assassination themselves).

This is sort of an advantage for the GM in that, being open he can decide these things for himself and get the desired political results "realistically".

So is that what you're looking for? An assessment of what might make for fun developments in terms of plot potential and such?

Mike

[Nick the Nevermet]

Yeah, pretty much

I was curious how you would want or have Wyrth develop.  What do you think would be interesting results?  These are two relatively major things bound to create a lot of stuff.  I was curious how people would organize that stuff into setting information.

I've given it very little thought, but I think a supplement for the Gelurois-Everybody war would be interesting.  It would be a 'possible future' campaign book, possible because its not necessarily the way the world goes, but just one path.  The book could partly have a potential chronology of how the war goes, maybe with two or three major branches depending on how various key battles go.  The other part of the book would be interpretting this information and given various plot hooks depending on who the PCs are.  Are they all refugee Fallenshire nobles?  A Gelurois military unit?  Stahlish footmen?  Cyrinthmeir spies?  Each one would have a different perspective on the chronology and see different issues as central.  I have no idea how such a book would be written, but I think it'd be cool.

And then other 1-book campaign setting outlines could be put out.  One for Otamarluk, maybe something dealing with the machinations within Xanarium, etc.  All ignoring the other books more or less, so there isn't one juggernaut metaplot.  Instead individual books, each a packaged idea on where to take the world.

But I'm rambling off subject.  Specifically about Gelure, I'm really curious about its leader and will he have a legacy, be alive, or neither.  I dunno why, but thats what I'm curious in.  When I'm home and not thinking about multivariate statistics, I'll probably post some ideas too, hopefully in the format of 'how this can tie into adventures or campaigns.'

[Mike Holmes]

"possible future"?!?

Sorry for the alarm. But just saying that it's a"possible future" or that it's not a "Juggernought Meta-plot" doesn't make the idea any more palatable to me. This sounds exactly like the sort of metaplot that's problematic. Especially when realeased after the fact.

What I'd like to see would be a see, instead, would be the starting dispositions of the sides as the campaign starts, the plans of the leaders, and what conditions are likey to come into play. Then, most interetingly, would be adventures that the players could undertake that would affect the course of the war. In the end, the disposition of the countries afterwards would be a partial effect of the player's heroic efforts. The more they succeed, the better their side does.

Such advantures include missions of all sorts like sneaking behind enemylines to get information, or kill important people. Rules for running across important persons on the battlefield should be present for whenthe players cet caught up in one. Perhaps they discover the locatin of magic stuff that can turn the tide of the war. Random havok that occurs in the enemy camp when a character rescues one of his Passions.

A final confrontation with the leadership of Gelure.  :-)

Yadda, yadda.

In that way, the war becomes a backdrop for the PCs stories, instead of being the story that their irrellevant actions are happening around.

Mike

[Mokkurkalfe]

Agreed. Their participation, if any, should very relevant. At least somewhere along the line.
Altough something I hate even more than irrelevant characters are when the characters are the only one that can save the world. God, I hate that. They should make a difference, but I've seen one too many a prophecised savior. In a similar fashion, I have a strong dislike for when a single artifact is the key to all power(a certain ring comes to mind).
OTOH, given the lethality of tRoS, a story about mere survival in a war-torn land might fit, altough it would probably be tricky to get decent SA's.'

[Mike Holmes]

Altough something I hate even more than irrelevant characters are when the characters are the only one that can save the world. God, I hate that.

This is problematic because it becomes obvious that the game is all set up to respond to certain actions that are required of the PCs. What if they don't want to save the world today?

Yep, you have that right, M. Whatever happens it should be driven by the characters drives.

In a similar fashion, I have a strong dislike for when a single artifact is the key to all power(a certain ring comes to mind).

Same problem. It then becomes the story of the artifact, and not the characters.

OTOH, given the lethality of tRoS, a story about mere survival in a war-torn land might fit, altough it would probably be tricky to get decent SA's.'

I don't know.

Look at each type of SA, and consider how to hook the players with it:
Conscience - this one is easy. Almost not worth mentioning. But all you have to do is make one side look like the good guys, and helping them becomes a matter of Conscience.
Passion - easy again, just get the NPC's in question involved. They are captured, as in my example above. Or threatened by the war. Or they are actually fighting on one side or the other (each with different and juicy opportunities). Or they are politically involved.
Drives - there are going to vary, but again, just threaten that drive. Or mae the war an opportunity to accomplish it. A noble character want's to save his own country from a different invasion? He has to help out one of the involved ones by bringing his personal army to secure that nations participation in their war.
Destiny - same as drives. Make the path to the destiny go through the war torn countries, and be involved in battles.
Luck - is generic in any case.
Faith - have the deity give him a quest that's involved with the war. Etc.

These all assume characters that exist having been created prior to the players knowing about the war. If they do know that it's to be the backdrop, then they can take SAs that are all about the war. Which is great. Similarly, as characters develop, they can drop old SAs and take ones relted to the war. The more you entangle them, the more likely this is to occur naturally.

Anyhow, I see no problem at all at getting characters hooked into a war scenario. In fact, I think that TROS is the most suitable game I've come across for such campaigns.

Mike

[Nick the Nevermet]

Wee, I made a mess.  Sorry about that.

What I was thinking of with my poorly thought out previous post was the Boy King Supplement for Pendragon.  For those who aren't familiar, its a campaign book for a King Arthur roleplaying game that basically amounts to what PCs would be doing at various points during Arthur's reign, and allows the PCs to follow through the entire story arc.  To the extent that this is a plot for the entire setting evolves around, yes, its metaplot.  

However, some games release books with new setting information which suddenly change the setting for the entire world, and all later supplements adjust to the new story developments.  White Wolf, Brave New World, Shadowrun, etc... what they do with metaplots is a product-line spanning endevour, that alot of people understandably have problems with.

I think there is a difference between that and something like The Boy King.  Yes, it makes references to other products (i.e. adventure X found in book Y would happen in year Z), but it doesn't completely alter the setting.  It is closer to a scenario (or series on scenarios) on steroids than it is to a White Wolf style metaplot (the one often held up as the prototypical metaplot, with all its problems).

I think Mike & I agree more than not on what this book would entail.  It would certainly involve various kinds of adventures, suck as getting information, etc.  I'm also didn't mean to imply that the future marches on with no input from the PCs.

The wordings about possible futures was an ill-advised attempt to emphasize the fact that I wasn't suggesting a metaplot that would need to be dealt with in all following material.  However, dealing with the Gelurois War would take a lot of time, both in game and out, so I used words like campaign (for the fact it would take a great many sessions to complete and would probably have a relatively closed story arc), and possible future (dealing with the fact that Mainlund could look a HELL of a lot different after something like the Gelurois War or the Otomartarluk Invasion).

My incredibly poor wordings aside, we really aren't disagreeing the most.  The biggest one is about metaplots, and I don't think I'm advocating one.

Another point is I made mention of this being some kind of 'dream book.'
I'll be the first one to admit such a book is just that: a fantasy.  There would probably be too many perspectives for one book to really give a good overview of what a PC would experience.  Nationality X Religion X Class makes a rather unwieldly number of categories.  The upside of this problem though is that it means that the situation is ripe with endless gaming and story ideas.

[Mike Holmes]

I don't think it's so much of a dream. I really think it could be done.

To get the metaplot thing out of the way, stuff like the Arthur timeline is...so-so. Not terrible, but still threatens to do bad things to a game. These sorts of metaplots work well if they are known before hand to all (like Ron's frequent example of the rise of the Dragon in Hero Wars). But given that we're talking supplement, that's where the trouble comes in. What, the book's all about the King of Gelure? Whoops, we killed him three sessions ago. Makes you have to do major adjustment to alter the book to usefulness again. If this info had been in the main book, then I'd have less objection.

What I am looking for is a product that gives you ideas for where things might go. Kida flowchartish. If the players do this, then the war progresses to this point. If they don't then it progresses to another point. Do it in a more gestalt or wholistic method than a flowchart, however. In any case, the idea being to gove the GM ideas of where things might go, but never say that any particular event must occur.

The most obvious solution, and easiest way to make this occur, is just to lay out the plans of the major players in the war. Once you know how the politicos and leaders think, it's easier to establish where they are headed given any event's. And the more people you write up, the more real the background seems.

The other thing is just hard data. "If Gelure recruits ininhibited their army will grow at a rate of 3000 per week for the entire summer". That sort of detail. It is, after all, only the details we're after so as to relate them as backdrop to the characters. I can see one saying, "Oh, so I suppose we're just going to stroll into an armed camp of fifteen-thousand on a high escarpment, and just walk off with the princess." The details is the campaign, the princess is one of the character's motivations. This would make for great action, IMO.

Anyhow, given the right dilligence I'm certain that it can be done.

Mike

[Brian Leybourne]

In a similar fashion, I have a strong dislike for when a single artifact is the key to all power(a certain ring comes to mind).

Same problem. It then becomes the story of the artifact, and not the characters.

Ah, but not if it's done well. That's the key.

Hell, nobody I know would accuse LotR of being a story about the ring. That's just a backdrop to the amazing story of hardship, struggle, betrayal and (finally) triumph.

Brian.

[Mike Holmes]

Exaclty right Brian. An artifact, NPC, war, setting, these are all good only solong as they serve as framework for the actions of the character. Once you make play about something other than the characters play becomes dull for the players.

At least that's my experience.

Fortnately, TROS is geared to provide an excellent character focus. A Drive to recover a magic item is all about the character, not the item. A passion for an NPC makes the game about the character's passion, not the NPC. etc.

Mike

[contracycle]

I'm with Brian, this is essentially a non-problem.  The Ring is Important - objectively - to the world the characters inhabit; and that is why it is important to them.  It is important precisely because it is NOT personal.

Another option, tho, would be to revel in the short lives of warriors.  Produce a scenario booklet with 10 different takes on the war - they could even be contemporaneous.  Several from each side, different experience - cavalry, infantry, slave regiment... caught in a seige... camp followers having hijinks in the baggage train... that sort of thing.

[Thirsty Viking]

Talk about Herding cats.....  lol

What an amazing range of wants....

I disagree with the flow chart idea....  in general polotics are too variable...   out break of plague or famine  can decimate force,  other countries can ally or not ally, betrayal on the battlefield....  revolt at home  when the army leaves to fight else where....   all these things are tools for the Sen.  to mold his future with/without  player involvement...   remember at best  the players will only affect a couple countries at a time...   the rest of the world keeps ticking.

What i'd like if it were done was one book  going into more detail on all the countries...   Stats on thier typical military units...   Stats on leading figures,  and a few generic NPC's  typically unique  to the country in question...  lets say 12-15 pages per country  and another 5 pages or so in opposing factions in that country...

perhaps on average
5 pages on the ruling class,  
1 page on the military  unit stats, force strngth, disposition
1 page on foriegn relations
3 pages a skill kit packet particular to country with a few "typical" NPC
in country using it.  (Flavor also an inducement to players to buy)
2 pages on the economy
5 pages on subversive elements in the country and possible plot SEEDS

17 x 12 = 204 pages

Add to this this a 1/2 page summary of military forces and economic data on adjacent countries not included  (just enough to supplement the foriegn relations section for minor wars and intrigue)

? another 5 pages?

table of all the "national" skill Packages

index    3-4 pages

regional maps with more detail?
political   (cities  roads etc...)
economic  (ie  trading goods  including typical trade routes w/ cargo)
population density  .....

3 pages
At roughly 12 countries a book, 3 books the size and price of the first one. I'd buy them.  

4 page summary of INTERNATIONAL TENSIONS  (meta plot seeds)
perhaps with a diplomatic relations table for all the countries in the three books in relation to the ones in this book.

and another 20-40 pages of really cool stuff I don't know I need
And you'd have a product almost as AWESOME as the first book.

While people might argue with me...   I don't want to pay more than about $200  for a total game systtem.   which is the ball park of this system with three hardback world books like i've described.  and the currently planned supplements.

This would generate ongoing revenue for driftwood,  provide loads of seed material for the SEN  and for the players in thier charachter creation,  and still leave the SEN  in charge of his individual world.

further more it would generat enough Value for the $$  that i believe it would escape the D&D greed effect that turns me off.

Well done  i'd by 3 of these books to cover the entire Continent,  note each book might have a minor appendix of adjacent countries econome and military,

ok i set the bar high,  but i'm talking about paying $105 for the world setting in 3 hardback books....   and it's your own fault JAKE for releasing such a wonderful main book.   You set a Standard of Excellence with it...

[Mike Holmes]

Like I said, John, Iagree that a flowchart isn't quite right. As I said, you need more of a gestalt gell. Essentially, a chapter or two on what can happen after a war begins in largely general and theoretical terms. Such that when that plague does come the GM has a firm grasp on how it will affect things politically.

One thing that makes this easier is that, though war is an infernally complex thing, the technological level makes it a bit easier to deal with. For example, in feudal societies, you cannot keep the men from the fields all year long or the country starves. So you have a limited campaign season, and limited manpower to draw from. Magic complicates things a bit, but that can be worked out (indeed needs badly to be worked out) as well.

I like you're 12 country size. If each focused a chapter on the important possible miltary conflicts in the region, I think we might have a decent compromise product. I agree that the setting supplements would be cool. OTOH, not easy to produce, or likely profitable, so we'll see.

Mike

[Thirsty Viking]

I like you're 12 country size. If each focused a chapter on the important possible miltary conflicts in the region, I think we might have a decent compromise product. I agree that the setting supplements would be cool. OTOH, not easy to produce, or likely profitable, so we'll see.
Mike

No doubt....   It would largely depend on the ammount of intrest we get generated in the system....   I'm starting to do in store demos a week from this wed,   mostly duels at first,  and I have gotten the owner to allow us to set up the combat sim on some computers he has for rent....  if they aren't being used at the time of course.  Also I realize that the first of any such products are a year away at the rate of one book every 3 months.

That leads us to how to Grow the Demand......