Using the tool of "Character Class"

[simon_hibbs]

Replying to Pale Fire :

>Bob decides to be a Garukkhar Warrior with sword as his primary weapon.
>Unfortunately the Garukkhar are supposed to be very peaceful creatures.
...

This point has absolutely nothing whatever to do with classes. Every game
I know that has different races, has benefits and penalties, some of them
cultural such as pacifism, specific to those races. A class based character
progression system is completely orthogonal to that.

>You're stating an obvious contradiction: "choice without paying for that in
>character creation time". If a player has n choices to do, that's gonna take
>longer than n-1 choices. That's just the way it is. I'm not saying there is no
>merit to those approaches, but you can't claim they are quicker.

This is a very weak argument, IMHO the choice of whether to use skill
packages because you're new to a system, or the full customisation
system because you know it well, is a trivial one.

>I especially dislike those game where you had a curency to spend which was
>uneven. Like 1 point to raise from 3 to 4 but 2 points between say 7 and 8.
>Usually aggravated by multipliers in skill cost.

What's that got to do with classes? D&D3E has that, yet is a class based
game. In fact, it has it _because_ it is a class based game - class skills
cost half as much as non-class skills to buy up.

>How fun is it to be constantly deprotagonized because you didn't know the
>game well enough (this applies to overly complex mechanics as well, or
>games where you have to "learn the system well" to do well in say for
>example combat)
...

As you suggest, this has nothing to do with classes, but a lot to do with
the complexity of the game system. Simple game systems like Call of Cthulhu
or Basic D&D are easy to get started with, I just don't think classes
are necessery to achieve that.

I'm sorry you had bad experiences in Shadowrun. One of my problems with
GURPS is that there are some obvious ways to optimise characters such that
effective characters often seem very 'samey', because they've used the
ssame optimisations. This is a problem with GURSP though (and apparently
Champions), not with classless games as a whole.

>If we want to look to a good clean implementation of classes, we only need
>to look at basic red box D&D. Simple, straightforward, and the "from 10
>years and up" on the box wasn't lying. It shows how classes can simplify
>a game.

I'm sure there have been plenty of other games that can boast the same
approachability. This is down to simple, streightforward game design,
such as in the GhostBusters RPG.


Simon Hibbs

[Christoffer Lernö]

Let me quote the original text I wrote:

1. Making sure the characters fit with the game world
2. Making character balance easier
3. Simplifying character creation
4. Adding details

Not every class system uses all of these, and not some doesn't even use any of them.

Keep that in mind for now:

Bob decides to be a Garukkhar Warrior with sword as his primary weapon. Unfortunately the Garukkhar are supposed to be very peaceful creatures.

This point has absolutely nothing whatever to do with classes. Every game
I know that has different races, has benefits and penalties, some of them
cultural such as pacifism, specific to those races. A class based character
progression system is completely orthogonal to that.

I refer to #1 as well as my title for the thread "Using the tool of character classes". You can make sure there are ways Bob can't make a Garukkhar Warrior without classes, and you can let him mess up things do it even if you have classes.

The point is that with classes it is very easy to make sure they fit the world. See #1 and also my comment I marked in red.

This is a very weak argument, IMHO the choice of whether to use skill packages because you're new to a system, or the full customisation system because you know it well, is a trivial one.

So you have not ever coached newbie players through endless lists of skills? Really? You are a lucky one.

I especially dislike those game where you had a curency to spend which was uneven. Like 1 point to raise from 3 to 4 but 2 points between say 7 and 8. Usually aggravated by multipliers in skill cost.

What's that got to do with classes? D&D3E has that, yet is a class based
game. In fact, it has it _because_ it is a class based game - class skills
cost half as much as non-class skills to buy up.

Ok:

1. It was an example of stuff that sometimes happens in skill based systems.

2. There is no D&D3E, there is only AD&D3E. don't mix up AD&D and D&D. AD&D is not a good example of classes.

3. See the comment I marked with red. I think AD&D3E seems like a mess. But I haven't played it, only 2nd ed. D&D on the other hand is a better example of classes actually put to some use. Character creation in D&D is trivial.

How fun is it to be constantly deprotagonized because you didn't know the game well enough (this applies to overly complex mechanics as well, or games where you have to "learn the system well" to do well in say for example combat)

As you suggest, this has nothing to do with classes, but a lot to do with
the complexity of the game system. Simple game systems like Call of Cthulhu or Basic D&D are easy to get started with, I just don't think classes are necessery to achieve that.

I never said they were necessary I only said it was simple to get that effect. As for the quote above it was incidentally about the usefulness of the Shadowrun archetypes.

This [optimization makes characters seem similar] is a problem with GURSP though (and apparently Champions), not with classless games as a whole.

There are a bunch of ways to get out of the mess. The difficulty also has a lot to do with the genre. If there are little use for optimization, for example running CoC, it doesn't become a big issue. There are other ways to avoid it as well, I could give examples but the point is that it is comparatively easy to do it with classes.

I'm not bothering to deal with the limitations and problems of classes. Those are well known. I was interested in the advantages. Design is about making compromises. If the avantage of taking classes far outweighs their known drawbacks, I think the choice ought to be obvious.

I'm sure there have been plenty of other games that can boast the same approachability. This is down to simple, streightforward game design, such as in the GhostBusters RPG.

Maybe, but they are getting more and more rare. I'm not familiar with the Ghostbusters RPG. Any links?

[simon_hibbs]

well, it seems we've largely reached the limits of our respective feelings on this issue. I don't see much point re-writing my opinions again as I think we've both covered our possitions reasonably well.

I do have one point of fact :

2. There is no D&D3E, there is only AD&D3E. don't mix up AD&D and D&D. AD&D is not a good example of classes.

Perhaps you should tell the game's publishers, as they're pretty convinced it's called D&D. The new game is more complex than old D&D, but is also very different to AD&D 1st or 2nd edition.

I'm not familiar with the Ghostbusters RPG. Any links?

There is at least one review on www.rpg.net which gives an outline description of the game and it's mechanics.


Simon Hibbs

[Jeremy Cole]

Palefire, it seems to me your project's basic mechanics are just about decided upon (congrats).  I suggest from here you flesh out the details, draw up a scenario, give it to your most supportive RPG group and let the chips fall where they may.  What works and does not will be very quickly determined there.

This may all be up on your web-site but the link wouldn't work for me.

Jeremy

[Christoffer Lernö]

Palefire, it seems to me your project's basic mechanics are just about decided upon (congrats).

Err? Ygg has been in "playable" format a lot of times. The mechanics have also changed from time to time. As for the class thing, I've been working with that as a premise from about the time I first stated up this thread.

Check out the two Ygg threads here (part 1) and here (part 2) those are as up to date as my site. It should be noted that they are overviews and not completely detailed. The site has some older postings which goes into more detail about the setting and the magic.

You could also search on threads on yggdrasil. Most of the threads I've started are directly or indirectly about my game.