Issues About Alchemy ....

[Thirsty Viking]

I'd love to see some alchemy rules for this game as well. Seems like the kind of thing that would really fit in with the general feel. :) -- but now I'm getting ahead of myself.
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Ed Northcott

Alchemist run along a fine line in TROS.   They could easily be confused with MAGES.  Like religion...  the Seneschal  would have some decisions to make.... is alchemy  CHEMISTRY and works every time,   or is it mystical and prone to failure...  possibly  explosive side effects  at random.  If it is available..  then  you need to decide what products an alchemist can make....  GREEK FIRE?  MATCHES? ACID? GLOW STICKS?  TRANSFORM ELEMENTS? SMOKE GRENADES?

Then you decide how hard the neccessary component/ingredients are...   extended rolls   over what time..  in what quantity...   are there 10 alchemists in the city of the empress who make glow sticks  so that her court is lit by the fire that doesn't burn for Dancing every night?

OR are there just harmless charletans who everyone believe are mad, with the occasional true mage hiding in thier midst.

Just for grins  obviously My decisions are rare and powerful but dangerous to make not JUST chemistry.......

Greek Fire  ...  100 gp
Combusts on exposure to air,  burns in water,  Burning time 3 seconds If hit by greak fire there is a 50% chance that another area of your body will be splashed.  Level three burn the first second, level 2 the second, level 1 the third, if no armor.  If in full plate,  LVL 0 LVL1 LVL1, if in chain
LVL 0 LVL2 LVL3,  and the gambeson under the affected area is destroyed.  failure to roll on ground or take similar steps for 5 seconds may Allow fire to spread to adjacent areas of gambeson doing lvl1 lvl2 damage.

Requirements extended PER/herbalism+2 need 8 succes , 1 day per check to gather necessary plants 5 success in woods 3 in desert.  30 gold in  3 exotic minerals must be obtained and they must be combined properly in a flask with 5 success on a single wit/alchemy test  
3-4 success result in a spiced wine that while pleasant to drink with a fair kick,  is only worth 4 gold.  
2 successes  the concoction boils away in a large stinking cloud before the flask can be stoppered.
1 success,  the mixture ignites and burns through the stopper...  Flask acts as a LAMP for the next 10 minutes.  
0 success  Flask shatters Burning the work surface, and doing a level 1 burn to the face and hands of the alchemist....  Removing all facial hair...  and he better hurry to save the rest.  
Finally a Botch,  with little warning  the concoction EXPLODES,  Alchemist takes LVL 5 damage from fire in 3-4 locations reflex save negates one level per success Minimum LVL1 .... Hair?  What Hair?  ENTIRE Lab is ABLAZE  Time to leave ...  if alchemist only took one lvl of damage he was in doorway running away when blast hit.

WINE?   why wine?   I don't know...  who can understand alchemy? God must have a sence of humor!  which one?  oooh  good question for this game.

[Spartan]

3-4 success result in a spiced wine that while pleasant to drink with a fair kick,  is only worth 4 gold.

LOL!  Actually, wouldn't it be Scotch? ;)  Something smokey like Lagavulin, perhaps?

In all seriousness, I like your take on it, T-Viking.  I like the idea of the PCs needing some kind of potion/whatever, and having to go through all kinds of charaltans that sell them snake oil, untill they find the one alchemist who actually knows what he's doing, and is NOT to be trifled with!  Of course, in the eyes of the layman, the distiction between alchemy and chemistry is probably academic... no pun intended, I assure you.

-Mark (who is more of a Balvenie man himself, but has never turned down a shot of Lagavulin in his life)

[Thirsty Viking]

 Of course, in the eyes of the layman, the distiction between alchemy and chemistry is probably academic... no pun intended, I assure you.

-Mark (who is more of a Balvenie man himself, but has never turned down a shot of Lagavulin in his life)

In case you really were serious there i'll illustrate.

In chemistry, doing the exact same thing always gives you the exact same results.   like your typical glowstick,  mix chemical A with Chemical B  you always get a glowing liquid that doesn't give off heat.

In alchemy  it doesn't.   Mix chemical A with Chemical B you get:
       Glowing cool liquid   20% of the time
       Roman candle  26%  of the time
       a black cloud that covers you in soot  12 % of the time
       Various and assundry random effects the rest.

That is the difference between chemistry  called alchemy  and alchemy that is mystical and magical and only semi predictable...

IMHO

[Northcott]

Yet if you throw in the low quality of chemistry/alchemy labs as a factor, you can get unpredictable results.  Glass vials that aren't perfect made, and so may burst or explode in heat/cold, uneven flames producing uneven results, accidental contamination, or the inability to identify impurities in compounds (or even differentiate between similar compounds).  

Then if you throw in some minor magic for chuckles, it gets even more chaotic. :)

Of course when I think of Alchemy, use of religion, etc. I think of that old videogame from MicroProse -- Darklands.  I think that that and tRoS are a perfect fit. (Or close to)

[Silanthous]

Yet if you throw in the low quality of chemistry/alchemy labs as a factor, you can get unpredictable results.  Glass vials that aren't perfect made, and so may burst or explode in heat/cold, uneven flames producing uneven results, accidental contamination, or the inability to identify impurities in compounds (or even differentiate between similar compounds).  

This is why most alchemists must be sorcerers, the successful ones anyway. the vial isn't perfect? sculpture 2, now it is. the flame isn't even? movement 2 on existing flame, or movement 3 alone, now it is. the meterials have impurities? visions 2, sculpture 2, movement 2, now the impurities are sitting happily in the waste basket and you have pure materials to work with. contamination? just use vision 2, sculpture 2, and movement 2 again. perfect mixing everytime, and the final produce takes no perminant sorcery pool or any other annoyances to maintain it's power, couse it is a natural mixture, with magic used only in the mixing to insure exactness.

[Thirsty Viking]

Yet if you throw in the low quality of chemistry/alchemy labs as a factor, you can get unpredictable results.  Glass vials that aren't perfect made, and so may burst or explode in heat/cold, uneven flames producing uneven results, accidental contamination, or the inability to identify impurities in compounds (or even differentiate between similar compounds).  

This is why most alchemists must be sorcerers, the successful ones anyway. the vial isn't perfect? sculpture 2, now it is. the flame isn't even? movement 2 on existing flame, or movement 3 alone, now it is. the meterials have impurities? visions 2, sculpture 2, movement 2, now the impurities are sitting happily in the waste basket and you have pure materials to work with. contamination? just use vision 2, sculpture 2, and movement 2 again. perfect mixing everytime, and the final produce takes no perminant sorcery pool or any other annoyances to maintain it's power, couse it is a natural mixture, with magic used only in the mixing to insure exactness.

My suggestions for alchemy excluded sorcerery from the mix.  In the rules as they exist now,  any spell can be put into an item and CALLED  an "alchemical" substance. It only drains SP when it is made permanent, such as a Leather jerking that gives Armor of Air to the wearer.  If the spell is just cast once, then the object that casts it ages. and the spell is released.  I was refering to the dangerous methods of trying to duplicate some spells that withoug using sorcery.  

But the Armor of Air spell would increase the survivability factor of an alchemist :-).
If it's just technology then it's chemistry  ...  even if magic does help if used along the way in the process.
If you want Street lamps but not electricity,  then the equivalent of GlowStick technology is discovered if you want it to be COMMON like a nail.  if you want it RARE but non sorcerous make it alchemy or just very Expensive.. it is easily limited either way.

[Apprentice of Steel]

I always think of alchemy as a sort of stop gap between going ooh look at the cool magic and i can do the cool magic,

The Alchemist in my view would be the person who dosnt really show the aptitude for magic, probably wouldnt make a good sorceror, probably because the are scared of the consequences.

But through alchemy they hope to wield a lesser (but still cool) power to make them rich/liveforever/Smiteenemies/Lookatprettycolours/whatever.

SO alchemy would be really long and formulaic (mix at the witching hour over the symbol of the 8steps to harmony in the heaven in a container incribed with the sigil of the FirstAlchemist etc

and need complicated ingredients of which 1 is almost always expensive/rare and another is something found where there is Fey

So Alchemists may be more common than Sorcerors, bt they cant do as much, its harder, but they are more willing to do for money as they arnt risking more than the odd replacement lab and burn unit costs


Course you could make it an adventure to get the parts for the potion

So you want to make a potion of Youth Restoration yon cocky sorceror, well i can make what you seek it wil not be easy, but you provide the ingredients i provide the effort to try.

So ill need the Horn of an Adult Hef, pack leader would be best.
A Hair from the head of a Giant/Captain Goll
A stone either red or green or black in hue from a dragons lair (not nessercairly an occupied one)
A Diamond the size of an Egg,
a pound of sulphur

THen if you want to be cruel add something like
the femur of a Elf


Course they find it all and he is the real deal then let the sorceror quaff a potion to give a litle of his life back

[Spartan]

In case you really were serious there i'll illustrate.

In chemistry, doing the exact same thing always gives you the exact same results.   like your typical glowstick,  mix chemical A with Chemical B  you always get a glowing liquid that doesn't give off heat.

I was referring to the laymen of Weyrth, not Earth.  Sorry for the obsfication. ;)

-Mark

[Thirsty Viking]

In case you really were serious there i'll illustrate.

In chemistry, doing the exact same thing always gives you the exact same results.   like your typical glowstick,  mix chemical A with Chemical B  you always get a glowing liquid that doesn't give off heat.

I was referring to the laymen of Weyrth, not Earth.  Sorry for the obsfication. ;)

-Mark

Your still not getting my point.  I'm not refering to a view of alchemy.  I'm refering to the FACT of alchemy DECIDED by the SENESCHAL.   It can be chemistry and reliable.  If that is the case then sideeffects will be rare.  It can be a powder that transforms lead to gold.

Now the descision to be made...   would it work in a 20th century factory assembly line.   If so then it is just chemistry (reguardless of the name) that appears magical...  think coolaid.  Every time I add the contents of a a pouch to a X amount of water and Y amount of sugar I get the same thing, non alchoholic wine.  (water to wine isn't so hard)   At the factory level the formula though more complex is every bit as reliable.

Now if you weigh in on the issue of a sorcerer can duplicate the perfect results of a modern factory (even if he can't duplicate the volume)  by misc sculture and sterilization spells....  it is still CHEMISTY.

Now if you rule that Identical combinations of all factors can produce a range of results...   then you are in the ALCHEMY area as I see it in my version of Weyrth.   Use of some spells may INCREASE your successul odds... but not ensure succes.   Various formulae will have different ammounts of success.    Any wizard woth the name can take a nice lump of coal and make it a diamond.  (assuming it is allowed  ...  Some materiels should be beyond magical transformation (to or from) IMO, what they are is up to you...   MITHRIL would be one on my list.


As for a Substance that restores the Life Force of a sorceror .....  I think one of my ingriedients would be the heart of an adult virgin of the same race who willingly and knowingly sacrifices their life for the potion to be made  .....  This would exclude magical compulsion (the humors would be off).  Obviously ... this is a very rare ingredient,  Those who eat the hearts of people who love them should suffer some Social Penalties in the least...   Perhaps a horible scar on thier cheeks  that looks like the sacrifice. This scar would be permanent and immune from any disquise short of covering it with cloth.  It would also be well known in folklore.



THE aging of mages is thier most important limitation in my opinion and not to be tampered with...   that being said...  I hate impossibilties.

-JOHN

[Lyrax]

I think alchemy should consist of two things:

1) the player gathering all sorts of herbs with made-up names like Demon Daisies and Stomacemptia herbs.

2) the player figuring out the natural rules of Weyrth (which may or may not change from adventure to adventure, Seneschal to Senechal).  "Hmmm... If I mix a Digestive poison with a Hallucinogenic, I should get..." and every once in a while, these herbs will be extremely volatile when mixed.

[Thirsty Viking]

I think alchemy should consist of two things:

1) the player gathering all sorts of herbs with made-up names like Demon Daisies and Stomacemptia herbs.

2) the player figuring out the natural rules of Weyrth (which may or may not change from adventure to adventure, Seneschal to Senechal).  "Hmmm... If I mix a Digestive poison with a Hallucinogenic, I should get..." and every once in a while, these herbs will be extremely volatile when mixed.

As i have said,  there are choices for the Sen. to make.   Either the mixture sought is CHEMISTRY and reliable because it realies on naturall inherent properties.
Or ALCHEMY and unreliable..  in that it involes fragile, and inconsistent magical properties in substances.
Sounds like you are on the chemistry side barring a fumbled role.  For the most part I'm on the Alchemy side for creating magical potions/substances without the use of sorcery.  Trying to convice that mob with torches..  that it isn't sorcery can be rather difficult though. :-)

For my take on alchemy,  reading a book Called "Master of the 5 Magics" is a good start.  I think he starts with 2000 potions in the first steps to successfully create like 3 or 4 potions of extreme heat resistance,  And his success rate was much higher than expected from the formula because he used other magics to improve his odds.

[Thirsty Viking]

Here is the quote of an alchemist in Master of the Five Magics

"100 times I boil the murky muds of the mangrove swamps with the gray clays from the barbaric north, so that I may get 50 crucibles filled with syrup of extraction.  And to those 50 I add the fleshy skin of the cactus, so the sweetness may be pulled away in 17, leaving clear liquid to be decanted here."
Alodar followed basil's arm to the nearest workbench and saw a figure huddling under a cape with an inverted triangle logo of an alchemist.  A bony hand reached out of the folds and carefully poured the liquid from a beaker into a funnel filled with what looked like coral red flower petals.  With a scratchy pen, the alchemist slowly copied the strange glyphs from an open grimoir on a clean sheet of paper and then crumpled and cast it into a flame when he was done.  For a moment the liquid seemed lost in the crevasses between the petals, but then a drop of light pink formed at the bottom of the funnels' stem and fell into the flask below. Several more drops followed the first, and then a steam of color trickled free.  Almost as quickly, a smell of stifling sweetness filled alodars lungs, and he coughed violently in surprise.
"It is always that way when it is fresh," Basil said. "Diluted and aged, you do not notice.  But I am lucky at that.  Out of 17, I expect maybe 3 flasks of honey suckle oil.  3 Flasks out of a 100 for spices, perfumes, and as ingredients for a dozen formulas more."

This passage taken from Master of the Five Magics by Lyndon Hardy, A Del Rey book, published by Ballantine Books, New York: Copyright © 1980 by Lyndon Hardy

To me that is ALCHEMY.  You can claim thier was minor sorcery with the glyphs on the page....  maybe...  i don't understand alchemy..  thats why it is mistaken for magic by the masses.   As Seneschal, i have no problem requiring that step without requiring the use of sorcery to accomplish it. There are more passages reguarding the wastes,  side effects of the manufacturing process,  etc... The main point is that this wasn't even necessarily for an end product.  But for an ingredient used in a dozen different formulas with more steps producing waste.[/quote]