Use of Dead Mechanics

[Gwen]

Just a question:

WOuld it be legal to use dead mechanics for indie games?  I.E. D&D 2nd edition, ShadowRun or Paranoia as new mechanics.

I don't think these games are in production anymore, so are these systems up for indie-grabs?

[S.Lonergan]

Technically..
There is no way to copywrite a game mechanic anyway.

Just completley re word it from scratch.. maybe change it a little..

and you should be fine


i think..

-- Seamus

[Jack Spencer Jr]

No way to copywrite it, but they can trademark term found in it. This means that you probably can't use terms like Armour Class...maybe. I'm not sure and this is just about whether they have a case or not. Nothing can stop them from just tying you up in court until you run out of money.

This is all Greek to me. It is better to consult a copywrite lawyer on the subject.

[Ron Edwards]

Whoa folks,

Jack is right - "Um, I think" kind of responses are a very bad thing. Let's keep the information here very clean and certain.

Mark (Gold Rush Games), can you comment on this? Or perhaps some of the folks who did so much work last year to dig up links on copyright?

Best,
Ron

[Kester Pelagius]

Whoa folks,

Jack is right - "Um, I think" kind of responses are a very bad thing. Let's keep the information here very clean and certain.

Mark (Gold Rush Games), can you comment on this? Or perhaps some of the folks who did so much work last year to dig up links on copyright?

Best,
Ron

A topical discussion of copyright issues related to gaming can be found at John' Kim's role-playing game site here.

There is also a PDF download of copyright/patent information pertinent to games on one of the U.S. Copyright Offices pages which I *think* should be this link here if not go to the "Connections" Forum here at the forge.  Look for a post by me (Kester Pelagius) with a subject line of "Are you looking for links?" and therein you will find more links to copyright information.

Hope this helps.


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Adam]

WOuld it be legal to use dead mechanics for indie games?  I.E. D&D 2nd edition, ShadowRun or Paranoia as new mechanics.

Since there have been 7 new Shadowrun releases and at least 5 reprints [including one of the new releases - Year of the Comet - and the core rules - reprinted twice] in the last year, I hardly think it's fair to say that the game is dead.

If your local retailer or someone else tells you that Shadowrun is dead, they're simply one thing: wrong.

[Apologies for the semi-OT post, but misinformation is a giant pet peeve of mine... doubly so when it involves companies I do work for. ;)]

[Gwen]

I followed the link to the copyright info and it states that a system or method of doing something cannot be protected.

So what's to keep someone from, say, ripping off WoTC... make a system called the 20 sided dice system and use their rules and sell products?

[Kester Pelagius]

I followed the link to the copyright info and it states that a system or method of doing something cannot be protected.

So what's to keep someone from, say, ripping off WoTC... make a system called the 20 sided dice system and use their rules and sell products?

Preface: I, like you, am just a citizen.  Meaning I am probably just as perplexed about these matters as you.  What follows is observational opinion.  (And a link.)  That said...

As I understand it this is a "patent/trademark" issue.

It's not so much that methods of doing something can be copyrighted, but perhaps doing something in a certain *mechanical* or *formulaic* way can be patented.  (I believe I read something about researchers patenting DNA chains and such, so go figure.)

To find out the specifics you will need to follow this link and surf the U.S. Patents and Trademarks home page.  The information is spread out under various links.


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

[Gordon C. Landis]

I followed the link to the copyright info and it states that a system or method of doing something cannot be protected.

So what's to keep someone from, say, ripping off WoTC... make a system called the 20 sided dice system and use their rules and sell products?

Kester points out (and/or points to links about) some of the legal complexities of copyright protection for the particular expression of an idea and patent protection for a system or method of doing something.  And yeah, you should throw trademark issues into the mix too.  Suffice it to say that IP attorneys (which I am not, though I do know some) get big bucks for dealing with these issues.

But on the "what's to keep?" thing - pardon my practicality, but the answer is "they have lawyers, and you probably don't."  That is, it doesn't really MATTER if you are technically within the law to publish the "20-Sided Dice System" - maybe you are, and maybe you aren't.  WotC/Hasbro has the resources to make business operations very unpleasant for those atempting such a thing, if they choose to do so.  And if you weren't VERY careful, they might even have good grounds.

On the other hand, they might not even bother - if there's no money in it for them, the only reason to defend it is because undefended IP begins to lose its' value (both in the marketplace and, sometimes, legally).  Not a risk I personally would want to take, but . . .

On the original question, I can only say that what seems "right" to me is to contact whoever is the current owner of the "dead mechanic" and say "Hey, I'd like to do X that uses/builds off/is similar to what you did in Y.  I'll acknowledge Y, not use (or correctly acknowldge) trademarks and etc. - is that OK with you?"  If you really want to get into the legal issues, ask a lawyer.  Which means spend money.  Which kinda sucks, but that's how it is.

Gordon