Questions: Scene Framing & Event Complications

[Alan]

Hi,

I was reading over the rules and discovered some things I'm not clear on.

1) The rules say that "the framer can't be interrupted until at least one character is introduced."  Elsewhere it says that the framer can't be interrupted until the first Event has been narrated.  Can you clarify this for me?

2) There's something in the rules about a non-turn player paying coins to make an Event into a complication.  But elsewhere, the rules seem to imply that the player has to Interrupt before doing this.  

Thanks,

- Alan

[Paganini]

1) The rules say that "the framer can't be interrupted until at least one character is introduced."  Elsewhere it says that the framer can't be interrupted until the first Event has been narrated.  Can you clarify this for me?

Framing a Scene has several important requirements. While a Scene is being Framed, the Framing Player cannot be Interrupted. Once the Framing Player has taken care of the required elements, he can be interrupted as normal. The required elements are:

Establish the Location
Set the Time
Introduce the Components

After these are completed, the Framing Player is basically just like any other player taking a turn to narrate, and may be interrupted freely. In practice it looks like this.

<Alice wins the bid to frame the scene.>

Alice: "A few minutes later, Bob and Carl reach the end of the dark tunnel and step through into the Vault of the Dead Kings!"

<Alice has completed the Scene Framing requirements, and may now be interrupted She continues to narrate until someone does, or until she's finished, passing the turn to the next player.>

Alice: "The Skeleton lord sits on his dusty throne, surrounded by undead minions. He lifts a long bony finger at Bob and Carl. 'Kill them,' he rasps, in a dry, grating voice!"

etc.

Does that help?

[Alan]

Does that help?

Nope.  I understand the basics of framing a scene.  I'm looking for clarification of a fine point.

On page 14 the rules say "the framing player cannot be interrupted until the location and time are set and at least 1 character is introduced."

However on page 52 says: "The framing player cannot be interrupted while he is framing the scene.  Framing refers to the 3 required activities of: establishing location, setting time, and introducing components.  When the first Event is narrated, the framing portion of the scene is considered over."

We can compare these two sets of rules by using a variation of your scene.  If I use page 14, then:

  Alice: A few minutes later, in the Vault of Dead Kings, Bob and -

  Ted: I interrupt!

If we use page 52, then:

  Alice: A few minutes later, in the Vault of Dead Kings, Bob and Carol enter.  Bob has his automatic and Carol has her magic sword, which has the traits 'Undead slayer', 'lops limbs.'  The fire illuminates the chamber, showing runes of power, etc. etc.

As long as Alice doesn't announce an Event, she can keep adding things to the scene.

Which version did the authors intend?  Or is there a middle ground that hasn't been clarified?

- Alan

[Paganini]

Ah, I see, so the question is not about what framing is, but about the prcise moment of its termination. Here's how I see it (Mike, Ralph, correct me if I'm wrong).

Page 16 says "Until the Location, Time, and principle Components present have been announced, the Framing Player is immune to Interruption."

In the Glossary it says "The Framing Player Frames the Scene by Establishing Location, Setting the Time, and Introducing the Components. The Framing Player cannot be Interrupted while doing this. The Framing ends when the Framing Player narrates the first Event, marking the beginning of regular play."

Or, in other words, Framing ends automaticaly when the Framing Player narrates an Event. Up til that time, the Framing Player can introduce as many components as he likes without being interrupted (asuming he has enough coins).

It's also important to remember, an Event is a Fact... it has to be paid for to be made real. Alice can narrate the Undead King rasping and pointing, and that's just color. But if she pays a coin to make the Undead Minions attack the characters, then that's an Event, and she can be interrupted.

In general, when in doubt I suggest looking at the Glossary. There's a lot more material there than you would expect from something that's basically a dictionary. It has concise summaries of pretty much every important aspect of the game. My Universalis Rules Summary document mostly consists of material from the Glossary presented in an organized way.

[Paganini]

2) There's something in the rules about a non-turn player paying coins to make an Event into a complication.  But elsewhere, the rules seem to imply that the player has to Interrupt before doing this.  

Oh, BTW, I think I just realized what you're talking about here. Are you talking about Obstacles referred to on page 62? If so, I've been wondering about that as well. Mike, Ralph, is that a typo, left over from one of the optional rules that got removed? As far as I can tell, the rules don't refer to Obstacles anywhere else, and there's no Glossary entry for it.

[Valamir]

What a well timed thread seeing the thread I'm just about to start.

What you've discovered are unfortuneate vestiges of having rewritten the rules several times.  I will pat myself on the back a bit because I'm pretty happy that so far these are the only artifacts people have reported and they're pretty minor.

Alan:  Good eye.  The rule should be that Framing officially ends (meaning Interruption immunity ends) with the first Event.  There has to be a location, a time, and at least one Component before the framing player can Frame an Event.  The Framing Player can introduce as many characters and components as he wants into the scene before doing an event.  

Basically the intent of the rule is to make sure that a player who paid for the privilege of framing gets to set the stage as he wants it before another player gets to take it from him for cheap.


Obstacles:  Yup that's an artifact.  The idea behind the Obstacle Complication was "dial a difficulty".  Player A narrates and event, Player B decides the event should be rolled for...Player B buys a bunch of dice representing the difficulty of the Event.  Sort of a quick and dirty Complication.  Ignore references to Obstacles.

[Mike Holmes]

Good question.

In play, I've interpereted the introduction of the first component into the scene as an Event if it is described as an action. For example:

Time: Immediately after the previous scene
Place: same location (implies all he same components are there)
Ken (who was already in the scene) stretches a bit and yawns. (Color, unpaid for)
Bob enters the scene (paid for with one Coin; this is not color, and could be construed as an event).

In this case, Bob's entrance could technically be considered a simple introdction of a component. But I'd consider it good enough to interrupt if I had a real good reason. Else it might get challenged on a technicality.

The player has had his chance to establish all the minimums, and has spent one coin on something (the Introduction) so Interrrupting at this point isn't too rude. Especially if he seems to be dawdling. If he seems to have more, I'd defintiely let it go until he finished.

As a group you can establish a hard and fast interperetation that an actual Event has to be paid for first, but, IME, the Framing player often passes before doing this, anyhow. This should be condisered the other official termination of the Scene Framing, BTW. As long as there are Components in the scene (not even necessarily characters), the Framer has done his minimum duty, and can pass. He does not have to declare an Event (or that's how I always interpereted it).

These are the sort of fine details that get established in play. Indeed, the line between what constitutes an Event and what constitutes a Component or Fact or whatever is sometimes blurry. You have to be willing to work with that subjectivity and form the group's interperetation through play.

As for the Complication problem, often people do Interrupt to create Complications. The classic example is when a player will Interrupt a description of a player crossing a chasm to create the chasm Component, and make it more difficult than it previously seemed (thus initiating the Complication). Certainly do not wait for your turn to do this. In fact, in play we usually let these things occur retroactively. That is, a player will say that Character A has crossed the chasm and pay a Coin to make that an Event. Another player will Interupt, grab the Coin and throw it back at the player, and say that he is creting the chasm and that it's going to be a Complication.

This technically violates the rule that says that you can't interrupt mid-sentence. But it does follow the spirit of Complications, and allows this tequnique to occur where previously it would not. Again, if the technicality bothers anyone, create a gimmick that says that such can be done.

If everyone has not yet noticed, Ralph tends to be the more technical player, and I interperet things more loosely. These styles both work in play. It's a matter of creating the social contract in play as you go and establishing what works for the group. For example when we play together we get a sort of compromise set of rules which cling fairly closely to the rules, but I get away wit a few rules attrocities.

Above, Ralph gave the theory behind the Framing rule. When reading the rules, try to discern the theory, and when interpereting, play by that, when the letter of the rule seems confusing or contradictory. Hash it out with Challenges if need be. Make gimmicks where you feel there are holes. If you do this, you'll find that the game becomes more what you need it to be, than the game that we wrote.

Because, after all, who cares how either Ralph or I play, precisely. The game has to satisfy you.

Mike

[Tony Irwin]

Obstacles:  Yup that's an artifact.  The idea behind the Obstacle Complication was "dial a difficulty".  Player A narrates and event, Player B decides the event should be rolled for...Player B buys a bunch of dice representing the difficulty of the Event.  Sort of a quick and dirty Complication.  Ignore references to Obstacles.

Whoops - we've been using obstacles as written, especially for the kind of situation that Mike describes where a character jumps a chasm. One of our own examples is where the player has his character do something like "practice his kata in the courtyard" and there's no component that he's opposing for any of the rest of us to take over.

I guess you could interrupt and create a component but what would it be? Actually now that I've thought about it I guess you could make it "Kata"* and give it "difficult", "tiring" and "arduous" or something but we've found it easier to do it just as you first intended. Somebody sticks up their hand and says, "Ok, but its a very difficult Kata, I'll buy three dice for it to see if you achieve it or not."

Same for juping across a broken bridge (bridge of khazadum managed to work its way into our L5R game) rather than creating an opposing component called "Bridge" or "Gravity" we just bought dice to represent the difficulty of the event (and usually gave them simple justifications like "Here's 2 dice as a terrible wind pulls at you", "Here's a dice as it seems to be awfully far to the other side".

Anyway - I suppose (like you say in the book) when we do that we really are creating components and giving them traits, but we're not bothering to write them down (or think about them too deeply) as they won't reappear later in the game. Adds a lot of drama actually as its so quick to start and resolve.

But hey its your game ;-)

Heh, its so weird (and cool) getting to discuss a game with its authors! Wait till I tell the guys I play it with! ;-) So are obstacles likely to be dropped from a second ed?

*Kata = A series of martial arts movements that samurai practice by themselves in courtyards. Looking real cool may or may not be involved.

[Valamir]

Ok boys and girls, that's what I get for trying to answer from work <bad game designer...bad>

Tony you are correct.  The Obstacle rules ARE actually in the book and are not an artifact (its one of those rules I put in and took out and hemmed and hawed over alot and in a moment of weakness couldn't remembered what I decided to do with it.).

Pags, more details can be found on page 24 where Complications are discussed as part of the game play chapter.  That these details are not found in the Complications chapter and is not in the glossary is in fact the artifact of me rewriting that part too many times.

Tony...thanks for the catch.  I had initially hacked those rules out because I wanted to keep things simple and have just 1 way of doing things in the Core rules, figuring the Obstacle rules would be better as an add-on.  But precisely for the reasons you give (they are just a plumb easy quick and dirty way to do stuff) I put them back in.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Alan]

Hi,

OBSTACLES

Okay, so on pg 24: "Complications can also be the result of another player placing an Obstacle into the scene.  This can happen anytime a player defines an Event that another player wants to turn into a difficulty test.  The interfering player can buy dice . . . Note that buying dice for an Obstale is conceptually identicle to creating a new component to represent the obstacle . . . "

Does this mean that the interfering player has to 1) pay a coin to Interrupt, then 2) pay a coin to create the Obstacle, then 3) buy dice for the Obstacle?

Or is it just buy dice for the Obstacle, without interrupting?

COMPLICATION TURNS

Another question: once a complication is created, does regular play halt until it is resolved, or do players take turns as normal until they decide to roll the dice?

In either case, can new Events, Components, Traits, etc. be bought during a Complication?  Can existing Components be brought into the scene?

- Alan

[Valamir]

Hi,

OBSTACLES

Does this mean that the interfering player has to 1) pay a coin to Interrupt, then 2) pay a coin to create the Obstacle, then 3) buy dice for the Obstacle?

Or is it just buy dice for the Obstacle, without interrupting?

Good question.  I think the easiest and least disruptive thing to do is to allow it without a formal interrupt.  This would be different from "normal rules" and would be an exception which I tried to avoid, which is the big reason I had initially decided to cut it.

Right now I'd go with just allowing the dice to be bought without Interruption.  I'll be trying to come up with some tighter wording regarding the obstacle thing as I go through and clean up the text.

Tony...others who've used this rule...your thought?
Easier to not require an interruption even though this would be an exception.  Or better to avoid unnecessary rules exceptions?

COMPLICATION TURNS

Another question: once a complication is created, does regular play halt until it is resolved, or do players take turns as normal until they decide to roll the dice?

In either case, can new Events, Components, Traits, etc. be bought during a Complication?  Can existing Components be brought into the scene?

- Alan

Another good question.  This one I think is covered in the rules on page 64 and in the shaded box on that same page.  The short answer is:

No, regular play does not halt.

Yes turns proceed as normal (although the "primary" activity should be centered on the complication and adding dice...the definition of primary and should is left to the play groups to decide).

and yes to all of the rest, plus things not on your list like using a mini scene to flash back to a scene showing why a particular Target in the Complication has some here-to-for unknown advantage worthy of dice.

[Mike Holmes]

If you look at some of the Complication add-ons on the website, you'll see that you can get pretty wide open on complications and how they are handled. Pay particular attention to the Nested Complication idea (Complications in Complications). That can really give you an idea of the scope of how to play out Complications.


BTW, one point of advice on Complications. Don't be the guy who messes up the feeling of rising tension in a Complication by throwing on an unnecessary addition to the Complication on the last round. For example, if there is a fight brewing, and we've added ten exciting dice to each side, don't be the guy who on the last rounbd says, "Oh, and for one Coin, you're feeling good today, add one die to your pool."

I see people who are uninvolved do this as a way to say, hey, I'm here participating, see! Better to save that Coin for when it's more dramatic. The way I play, the Complication is resolved when everyone passes (as opposed to just table agreement). I like that last round to be a feel thing where everyone knows that it's ready to go and the cry of "pass" goes around the table really fast (pass, pass, pass, pass, roll!). This is dramatic. When it's interrupted as above, and then we have to pass around again back to that same guy, that's lame.

Don't be that guy!  :-)

Mike