Another sorcery variation....

[Brian Leybourne]

If your looking for relatively low CTN spells with a really big bang, you can cause a kiloton-level event from a good mile away with a simple movement spell and a big rock.  T-1, R-1, V-3, D-0, V-3 = 8... minus 1 or two for gestures and w have a spell with a TN of 6 or 7 that can litterally flatten a decent sized city from miles away.

Jeez.. I hope Ace doesn't read this post, or the whole "light speed rock that destroys the world" discussion will start up again :-)

Brian.

[Mayhem1979]

No... throwing around objects at high farctions of C is not agood idea (a atom of iron going at C theoretically has infinite energy, so that would be enough to shatter Weyrth though) ... but a 5 m chunk of iron going 72.8 km/s will make a boom of well over 300 kilotons...  


...take a lead ball and get it going at high-mach and it'll start turning to plasma before it hits... and whatever it hits is going to be little more than toasted chunks of meat, bone, and steel....

[Jake Norwood]

I'm going to step in and moderate here. This thread is for Stephen's question and the discussion thereof. While the "big-bang" discussion does show how cheap amazing power can be in TROS, it's also like honey for flies. I officially forbid any discussion of the "big bang" or anything like it in this thread. You can start up another if you like, but I want this one to continue on the path it started (I, for example, and fascinated by Ron and Stephen's discussion).

End moderator mode.

Jake

[Stephen]

Hi Stephen,

Actually, it's your patience I'm appreciating. I was afraid my last post was too patronizing.

Heck no.  I was afraid you were coming from a, "Oh, God, not another powergamer who stubbornly insists we shouldn't have set up a magic system that actually costs its characters something valuable...." viewpoint; I was pretty certain you must have already had this conversation a few times.

Let's hash out this all-SA's thing a wee bit more.

Say Van Helminck... currently has Destiny 3, Passion 2, Luck 5, Conscience 1, and Faith 2.  OK, he's all busy with some conflict. Say ... oh, two of his SA's can be involved. (Which is not at all hard to imagine; arguably, a mindful TROS player will simply angle hard toward conflicts which involve his or her SA's anyway, and a mindful GM is pumping SA-relevant plot hooks at them constantly; otherwise, what's the point?) Say they're Destiny and Faith, for 5 points. Cool! The very act of using those two SA's, in this situation, nets him at least one more point per SA (see the rules!), quite likely more. Let's call it three added total.

Next action: that's 8 points for using these two SA's again, and this time the player spends 2 Luck - bam! 10 points, as in my example.

Hm.  Okay, this does illuminate things a little more clearly, and a little more believably as well.  The ease with which one can raise one's SAs still tends to catch me by surprise.

(In all honesty, as a writer, my dramatic instinct would urge me to enforce a scene or two before the new SA levels "kick in" -- it's very easy in this pattern to go from SA 1 to SA 5 in a few hours of character time, which rubs me the wrong way.  But that's much less of a problem.)

My point? Ten SA dice isn't very hard to get, even if you're using only two of your SA's, not all five. I also suggest that a mindful player can line up four or five SA's without terrible trouble - certainly, not for a "stupid goblin leaps from bushes" encounter, but definitely when it counts, emotionally.

Eehhhh... This I don't buy, so much.  There are just too many different varieties of Destiny, Drive, Faith and Passion to imagine finding an easy way to line them up without conscious predesign (which also rubs my writer's instincts the wrong way; an interesting character should regularly be caught in situations where his SAs are pulling him in different directions, in my opinion).  Still, I do see your point, which eases my concerns somewhat.

Also, if a sorcerer is flinging around 15-dice and 20-dice pool rolls around, then he's almost sure to get the "best roll" Luck point bonus most sessions, so sorcerer Luck tends to be pretty high.

Er, which bonus is this?  Don't remember that one.  Didn't read Luck that closely.

Studying magic and practicing magic do not have to be defined as casting magic, in TROS terms. This is a very difficult concept for people - that guy's "doing magic," right? That means a spell roll, right? Wrong. He's working up his Ritual skill; he's working up his Language skill; he's working up his Vagary total. None of this presupposes that he's casting real magic at any point.

Well, my inclination that studying and practicing magic has to involve actual use of magic is based on slightly more complex reasoning.  Primarily it comes out of the vision of magic as Art, which suggests that one can only get so far on theory and simulation alone; actual performance is required to improve true ability, especially for a mystical peak of psychic exertion.

Perhaps he does actually cast a spell as "practice," once in a while - trying out a Formalized spell in the best conditions, taking huge CTN reductions for casting time, using the best materials in the most relaxed conditions, putting eensy amounts of his pool into the spell-casting and reserving the lion's share for the aging resistance. But remember: nothing about the TROS rules says that you must cast a spell successfullyin order to build your sorcery Vagaries higher. That's a BRP rule; it ain't in TROS.

True, but for Vagaries in particular, the idea that one can get stronger in magic without actually using that magic feels wrong -- I can imagine improving Ritual and Language through "inactive" practice, but I have always imagined that mystical muscles parallel physical ones: you have to use them and push them to strengthen them.

And that's not just a BRP rule hangover -- I've never played BRP -- it's a fairly well-established element of a lot of literary magic as well, in addition to real-world beliefs about psychic abilities.

Still, as you noted before, this is my concept of what a sorcerer "should" be, not necessarily TROS'.  If the rules allow you to get better in magic without actually casting spells, this does address my concern.

Let's hop back to the real pulp fiction: Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, and Fritz Leiber; we can also include their true heirs, like Jessica Amanda Salmonson, Michael Moorcock, and Karl Edward Wagner. L. Sprague deCamp and Lin Carter are emphatically not invited.

Hey, I rather liked Conan the Buccaneer... but yes, in fact, Howard, Leiber and Moorcock are actually among the people I'm thinking of.  Most specifically, Howard's story "The People of the Black Circle", which features the most direct examination of actual magic in the Conan corpus.

Looking at these works, most of the day-to-day sorcery is actually technology: drugs, alchemy/chemistry, and hypnotism. When magic gets used, huge catacombs to Otherworlds yawn open, reality twists and bends, the distinction between past and present fades, and huge friggin' entities wreak enormous havoc. That day-to-day stuff you're referencing doesn't look like "magic in action" to me, but rather study, reflection, and preparation.

I'm not sure I agree.  Look at the magic in "PotBC".

SPOILERS
FOR
REALLY
COOL
HOWARD
AND
LEIBER
STORIES
FOLLOW

Khemsa throws around Level 3 Conquers like they're going out of style without visibly breaking a sweat, getting stronger with each one rather than weaker (though there's a lot of SA-calling upon there in his final confrontation, granted).  The Master eviscerates Kerim Shah with a word and a gesture, shapechanges in seconds rather than hours, and gets around on his crimson airborne cloud without invocation or travail.  There's enough power tied up in the Foamball Fireballs that I'd certainly demand a casting price out of any PC who tried to create them.  None of it costing (or, I'll grant you, appearing to cost at any rate) the kind of sweat, sacrifice, or higher purpose TROS sorcerers have to invest to pull off the same feats.  Thoth-Amon and Xaltotun appear equally untroubled by concerns of aging (though Xaltotun, at least, is already dead, which explains that fact).

As for Leiber, the story "The Lords of Quarmall" is his pull-out-all-the-stops-of-sorcery tale, and there too, when you're actually down and dirty with magic it gets thrown around a lot without apparent sweat or effort.  Gwaay and Hasjarl certainly have very powerful hatreds for one another, which explains Gwaay's last spell, but the Mouser's all-powerful sorcerer-killer spell is delivered almost by accident, and again without particular personal investment or consequence.  And Sheelba and Ningauble are pretty heavily implied not even to be human, which takes them out of the realm of PC-dom entirely.

A TROS sorcerer, even an experienced one, who tried to play a character like Khemsa or Gwaay (who uses his Movement Vagary to play chess) and to do what they do would age far faster than the pulps actually imply their magicians do, for the most part.

Still, your example does actually alleviate a lot of my concerns about the magic system as it stands.  My own preference is for sorcerers who can pull off at least some genuine magic, on a small scale at least, for the sake of sheer impulse or convenience once in a while, so I will probably still create a "Strain" buffer if I ever play TROS myself (albeit a smaller one than I originally envisioned).  But you've given me a lot to think about.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Stephen!

Great discussion.

You wrote,
There are just too many different varieties of Destiny, Drive, Faith and Passion to imagine finding an easy way to line them up without conscious predesign (which also rubs my writer's instincts the wrong way; an interesting character should regularly be caught in situations where his SAs are pulling him in different directions, in my opinion).

I agree with you in writer's-instincts terms, although I think you are concentrating on the "problem" phase rather than the "resolution" phase.

I also am curious about how much TROS you've actually played - mindful players are very, very good at (a) saying "Aw, shit!" (delightedly) when the SA's get contradictory and (b) reacting appropriately, whether through in-game actions/effects or by metagame simply changing the SA's by spending them out, such that the "realignment" occurs in one or two sessions. I do not consider this process to be a competitive or negative one between GM and players, but rather the shared and often mutualistic process of Narrativist authorship.

Your comment indicates a level of surety about lining up the SA's which I think is only justifiable through extensive play experience.

Regarding Luck, you wrote,
Er, which bonus is this? Don't remember that one. Didn't read Luck that closely.

Whoever gets the highest single roll in a given session automatically gains a point of Luck (meaning an increase, not a "refresh"); whoever gets the lowest single roll in a given session automatically gets the same.

I strongly recommend that everyone playing TROS should read up on how all the SA's are gained and lost, because they are all different. It's astounding how fast many of them ramp up even when rolls fail, and also how easy it is to change them in mid-session.

Well, my inclination that studying and practicing magic has to involve actual use of magic is based on slightly more complex reasoning. Primarily it comes out of the vision of magic as Art, which suggests that one can only get so far on theory and simulation alone; actual performance is required to improve true ability, especially for a mystical peak of psychic exertion.

... for Vagaries in particular, the idea that one can get stronger in magic without actually using that magic feels wrong -- I can imagine improving Ritual and Language through "inactive" practice, but I have always imagined that mystical muscles parallel physical ones: you have to use them and push them to strengthen them.

In this passage as well as in your previous posts, you use the words "feel," "inclination," and "imagine" a lot, as well as a reference to "real world beliefs about psychic abilities" - which is fine, insofar as that's what you're describing, but these are very weak as a foundation for discussing a system/setting's features' validity. Again, my only sources for TROS are (1) the canonical pulp fantasy and any subsequent material that remains true to it, and (2) historically-evocative fiction such as The Trumpeter of Krakow or the Crusades fiction by Graham Shelby (sort of historical-romance without the bodices).

Oh thank God, someone who actually knows the real pulp stuff! Plus using some of the finest sources for discussion. Here we go.

Khemsa throws around Level 3 Conquers like they're going out of style without visibly breaking a sweat, getting stronger with each one rather than weaker (though there's a lot of SA-calling upon there in his final confrontation, granted). The Master eviscerates Kerim Shah with a word and a gesture, shapechanges in seconds rather than hours, and gets around on his crimson airborne cloud without invocation or travail. There's enough power tied up in the Foamball Fireballs that I'd certainly demand a casting price out of any PC who tried to create them. None of it costing (or, I'll grant you, appearing to cost at any rate) the kind of sweat, sacrifice, or higher purpose TROS sorcerers have to invest to pull off the same feats. Thoth-Amon and Xaltotun appear equally untroubled by concerns of aging (though Xaltotun, at least, is already dead, which explains that fact).

And all of these work best as embedded spells as I've discussed recently in the Low CTN spells? thread. I maintain that these are the most under-utilized rules in the book, based on forum commentary, and that they make sorcerers astoundingly powerful in the clinch in terms of resisting aging.

Notice that when Khemsa faces an unknown threat, who does not factor into his SA's in combination (i.e. Conan), he falls back on his (considerable) martial arts ability rather than flinging a spell.

Canonically, Thoth-Amon appears in a single Howard story (I do not include The God in the Bowl, nor the re-writing of The Black Stranger in the form of The Treasure of Tranicos as canonical), The Phoenix on the Sword. He clearly relies on his ring - a Gift which presumably carries phenomenal "safety margins" (e.g. lowered CTN) for powerful sorcery, and quite likely a focus for scary-ass embedded spells. His Passions (hatred for Ascalante, pride), Drive (revenge for humiliation), possibly a Destiny (as who would doubt that Thoth-Amon is not destined for something-or-other, even though Howard didn't write about it), and what-the-hell, Luck for the final 5.

As for Leiber, the story "The Lords of Quarmall" is his pull-out-all-the-stops-of-sorcery tale, and there too, when you're actually down and dirty with magic it gets thrown around a lot without apparent sweat or effort. Gwaay and Hasjarl certainly have very powerful hatreds for one another, which explains Gwaay's last spell, but the Mouser's all-powerful sorcerer-killer spell is delivered almost by accident, and again without particular personal investment or consequence. And Sheelba and Ningauble are pretty heavily implied not even to be human, which takes them out of the realm of PC-dom entirely.

Gwaay and Hasjarl are on their home turfs, and presumably embedded stuff is all 'round them. As you say, I think that 20-25 dice for SA's are not unreasonable for them throughout the story; Leiber was deservedly a Grand Master with a strong theater background, and he obviously placed most of his stories in what amounts to the last 20% of the "whole" story for a given scenario - which in TROS terms means the SA's are fired 'way up.

I maintain that the Mouser does not cast the sorcerer-killing spell in TROS terms, but activates Sheelba's spell. It's quite up for grabs whether it "flubs" due to his incompetence or does exactly what Sheelba intended; I tend toward the latter interpretation.

... I will probably still create a "Strain" buffer if I ever play TROS myself (albeit a smaller one than I originally envisioned).

You know what this reminds me of? All those people who went into neophobic-twitch mode upon reading my game Sorcerer and seeing (a) only three scores (with no skills!) and (b) its one-roll initiative/hit/effect system. They all said, "When I play it, I'll add [X]," and then when they did, they said, "Shit, [X] really messed it up and was totally unnecessary."

I suggest trying the game as written. I've played (um) fifty-plus RPGs very seriously (meaning maximum fun) over the last few years, and one insight from that is that reading a game text and knowing how it plays are very, very different things.

Best,
Ron

[Apprentice of Steel]

my thoughts, (i admit im green having run a oneoff 13th warrior TROS and thats about it,)

I like the way sorcery feels, with just a little focus and effort big trouble is yours..... at a cost.

i liked the once mentioned and then ignored idea of not loosing SP when using it to resist the dreaded aging (henceforth and nowon to be called the drain) (no i dont play shadowrun) (much)

By saying you 'useup' SP to cast but not to resist drain i think you end up with more of my image of the sorceror. weith the possible variation (if you like complexity) of having max vag used 1 no SP lost  when soaking 1/2 lost on a vag2 and normal service for anything doing a 3

Now imagine we have Gandalf (name out the sky guv, honest) he has a Sp of say 10 (arnt i generous)

he wants to do say a dirt easy vision 1 trick or the move 1 to play chess with a minor telekenetic trick

target number ends up say 3 or 4 with or without tweaking,

now why not gamble roll 1 or 2 die for the effect, it goes off then you have a nice safe 8 dice to get your drain to nadda.

Now if you are aiming at a CTN 6+ the odds are high youll fail or age or have to start doing SA manipulation etc......

It allows the sorceror to impress the natives and gives him the ability to do minor tricks and handy helps.

BUT it also limits him in the more gimmicks the lower the SP gets shaved until he runs the risk of aging anyway,

This allows the odd minor magic nonsence to make people fear the mighty sorceror while still limiting them in that too many triks will cost and performing them at all (because you can) could cause trouble when serious firepower is needed

i like to think of tolkiens Gandalf being like this, able to do a small number of magic tricks a day without to much danger, but remembering to conserve ammo for the real trouble and consequences


but hey this is just my view on an idea that isnt even mine to start with.

Even so im liable to let the system work as it is, just thought to offer a view

[Irmo]

i like to think of tolkiens Gandalf being like this, able to do a small number of magic tricks a day without to much danger, but remembering to conserve ammo for the real trouble and consequences

I actually consider the TROS system, with slight adaptions, much more fitting for Middle-Earth than the bookkeepish system the new LotR RPG uses. When we see magic of the flagrant kind in Middle-Earth, it isn't through the use of arcane mumbo-jumbo. Rather, the magic-user states specifically what effect he wants to see. It's not formula-based, but effect-based, and the vagaries in TROS fulfill that quite nicely, as does the non-requirement of formulization.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

The Apprentice's comments apply very well to the psychokinetic chess in The Lords of Quarmall.

Best,
Ron