rewarding plot complications

[Matt Wilson]

There are gamers who take pleasure in scenarios that work out with no complications, and then there are gamers who will want the same thing to happen out of habit, having played with the first kind of gamer for N years and knowing that "creative thinking" or impulsive behavior will get characters killed.

I know there's a few good ideas out there to encourage action in the name of the story, despite the risk, but still there are folks out there who are a little gun shy, even if you tell them things outright like "no, really, your character can't die. That's not the point of the game." Yet many of these players would be so much happier playing that kind of game.

So I was trying to think of methods of encouragement that reach their old-school gaming roots, and hey, when doesn't greed work?

So what about a system where you earn XP (or some other resource) by adding complications or taking otherwise foolhardy actions that make for a good story? Has anyone done this? It could be a patch to aid d20 drift, or it could be something built into the system, like you gain "bravery points" for being willing to stop and search the seemingly innocuous derelict starship, things like that.

[Matt Machell]

Both 7th Sea and Nobilis use this form of reward scheme, though the complications tend to be those chosen at character creation. It seems to work pretty well for them.

Extending it into game would seem a logical progression (and games with rewards like Drama dice or Stunt dice effectviely do this anyway, just with a different currency).

-Matt

[Valamir]

Orkworld Trouble Points are one of the best examples of doing this.

d20 already has Challenge Ratings that allow GM's to assign XPs to anything you want such as exploring a derelict starship.

The other thing to do is reinforce it with GMing style.

GM:  Bob what are you doing?
Bob:  Well, ummm, exactly what kind of armor are the goons wearing?
GM:  Right...Fred what are you doing?
Fred:  I'm leaping over the bannister shooting at to goons on the way down and landing on a third.
GM:  Fantastic, roll some dice.  Great...you blast one, the other one dodges behind some crates...the guy you land on doesn't look happy.
GM:  Bob, what are you doing.
Bob:  Well, how far down is the next floor, will I have to roll for damage?...and what about that armor?
GM:  Right...Fred what are you doing?

The catch is that once you get the players to think in terms of action first, that the GM isn't there to screw them...you can't turn around and abuse their new found trust by ganking them with something that previously they'd have meticulously searched for and avoided.

[Tim C Koppang]

The catch is that once you get the players to think in terms of action first, that the GM isn't there to screw them...you can't turn around and abuse their new found trust by ganking them with something that previously they'd have meticulously searched for and avoided.

That's so incredibally evil.  I'm not sure whether to be disgusted or delighted.

However, don't you think that Bob will just get angry and yell about the GM cheating him out of actions?  He might say that the meticulous way is the only way and then argue that you're cramping his enjoyment.

[Matt Wilson]

Orkworld Trouble Points are one of the best examples of doing this.

d20 already has Challenge Ratings that allow GM's to assign XPs to anything you want such as exploring a derelict starship.

Haven't picked up Orkworld, but I've heard about the Trouble points. Anyone want to elaborate or point me somewhere?

As for d20, yes there are challenge ratings, but what if you not only get players to take exciting risks, but also you give them the ability to decide how much is at stake? Maybe in d20 the players could declare that the ship is X challenge rating because they really need X worth of "treasure" to repair their ship. It's an immediate reward for making the game more interesting. Sort of like how Sorcerer encourages the GM to dish out bonus dice for cool actions.

[Valamir]

Glow, he probably will get pissed off at first...but this is exactly the sort of GMing I did the first time I ran 7th Sea.  The lost actions I explained away as "he who hesitates...loses actions".

Once they realized that I wasn't setting them up for a fall, and once they realized that Drama Dice were there to bail them out if the act before they think mentality got them in trouble, and once they realized that I WASN'T putting little hidden details, secret clues, and stashed treasures around that they'd only find if they specifically asked to search the room for 15 minutes per 10 square feet they got into the swing of things (pun intended).

Another favorite trick is the "Ok, make a roll for that", and then say "No" or "You dont find anything" before the dice stop rolling.  I use this to begin to establish what rolls I consider trivial and they don't have to bother making rolls for.  


Wilson:  Orkworld is available (as far as I know, still) at www.wizards-attic.com.  The www.wickedpress.com website is still down and I don't know if its ever coming back up.  You can also often find copies at your FLGS.

Player selected variable Challenge Ratings sounds like a great idea to me.  The guidelines for CRs are fairly vague, but should be enough to give a GM a good idea of how tough to make something.

[Alan]

Hi Matt,

Another example is Theatrix plot points, which are also the XP of the game.  Players have the power to create complications and even whole subplots at no cost.  They earn XP for the main plot and each subplot they participate in, based on how complicated each was.  Creative players can double or triple their XP rewards.

- Alan

[Tim C Koppang]

Another favorite trick is the "Ok, make a roll for that", and then say "No" or "You dont find anything" before the dice stop rolling.  I use this to begin to establish what rolls I consider trivial and they don't have to bother making rolls for.

I actually agree with you about your lost actions technique.  My above comment was meant as a devil's advocate type of consideration.

However, I will have to take issue with the useless dice rolling trick.  Although I've done it myself and am in complete agreement with you about the intentions of said technique, I would have to say that doing it can lead to trouble and unrest among players.  They start thinking that you are fixing all the rolls and then just end up saying, "Ahh hell what's the point?  You have it all figured out beforehand anyway."

That's bad.

If a die roll is trivial, don't ask them to roll dice.  If they demand that you make them roll dice, then either blately deny the request or . . . or . . . or make them lose another action. ;-)  They'll figure out what actions are trivial on their own based on what you do ask them to roll for.  And maybe with the extra liberty that you are showing will actually start to take matters into their own hands (eg minor directorial power).

[Valamir]

This is a little tangental, but I thought I'd clarify a bit.  The idea is not really about rolls, but about getting the players out of the mode of going down the check list of standard actions "I check for traps", "I search for secret doors", "I loot the bodies", "I listen at the door" etc.

By simply saying "you don't find any", or "theres nothing there", without calling for a die roll, you're actually reinforcing the question.  The natural assumption by players used to these 20 questions style games is that "if the GM didn't make me roll that must mean success is automatic, because I can't fail unless I have a chance to roll for it".  By having them roll, and then completely disregarding the result, I've found (at least for players I've used it on) that trivializing the roll, trivializes the action the roll was for...which is the result I'd be going for in this sort of game.

All of the above type questions stem from a single assumption:  The GM is hiding stuff from us and keeping secrets and the only way to force him to devulge the secrets is to succeed on the right die roll.  Since we don't know exactly what he's hiding we don't know which of the many "force the GM to tell us stuff" skills we have will work, so we have to try them all.  Further since we don't know the difficulty, we don't know if a result of "nothing" is a failure, or a success revealing nothing, so we have to have EVERYBODY try them all to minimize the chance of false negatives.  There's either something good that we'll miss if we don't roll, or theres something bad will suffer if we don't roll.

The Ultimate goal is to get the players to realize that there isn't any cool stuff they're going to miss or bad stuff their going to suffer based on the success or failure of a die roll (based on their roleplaying yes...based on a die roll no).  So I've found that emphasising player decisiveness about their declared actions, and trivializing (in something of a smart ass way that may not go over well for all personalities of players) helps break the old paradigm that much quicker.

[Mike Holmes]

You know, I think that the Hesitation rule exists in the rules of Feng Shui, and I know that it exists in Toon. Something like "If a toon hesitates a moment too long just declare that it's Boggled and move on to the next."

Mike

[xiombarg]

As for d20, yes there are challenge ratings, but what if you not only get players to take exciting risks, but also you give them the ability to decide how much is at stake? Maybe in d20 the players could declare that the ship is X challenge rating because they really need X worth of "treasure" to repair their ship. It's an immediate reward for making the game more interesting. Sort of like how Sorcerer encourages the GM to dish out bonus dice for cool actions.

In a recent edition of Polyhedron magazine, there is a d20 mini-setting called "Omega World" by Jonathon Tweet, which is essentially the d20 version of the old classic, Gamma World. In it is an alternative XP system for d20 called "Freeform Experience", which explictly rewards taking risks. If the PCs play it safe and do nothing, they get hardly any XP at all. If they take risks, they get a lot of XP -- in fact, the most XP is rewarded for spectacular failure and spectacular success, in terms of in-game goals -- that is, it doesn't matter if the brilliant plan saves the villiage or destroys it, as long as it was exciting you get the same amount of XP.

You might also want to look at the XP system in d20 Call of Cthulhu. This is more structured. Basically, you set story goals: "Defeat Creature X" "Discover What's Going on With the Tome of Vlax" etc. and you get a certain chunch of XP (there's formula) every time you succeed at something. Depending on what you set those goals to be, it could reward cautious play or free-wheeling play.

The standard CR system rewards cautious, gamist play, IMHO. Basically, you're rewarded for being able to defeat something, which requires careful tactical thinking. The biggest rewards are for defeating things with a CR much higher than your character level, which usually requires a lot of caution and preplanning.