Tip of an Iceberg

[Sidhain]

Tip of an idea





    "In the Red"


character in an ITR game have a number of attributes decided by the GM as is appropriate for the current ITR game's genre.

For example a espionage game may have the following pools

Movement:
Wits:
Suave:
Combat:


These are all that is important specifically for emulating the type of espionage game the gm want.
In a different espionage game a gm may ask that the pc's be constructed of the following pools

Melee Combat
Ranged Combat
Movement
Defense
Charm
Intelligence
Resiliance
Will




Each pool is rated from 1-5 (1 being minimal measure of this, and 5 being maximum for their shape/form in this)
the rating in each is assigned by the player and is built by spending 3 times the number of attributes in points on rating the attributes
hence in the first example one would have 12 points to build a PC, while in second one would have 24.

Now what do the points do? they buy results in the game, one might call it narrative control but since each point is flavored specifically
it gives a reason/explanation as to how.


So say I wish for my Spy--Johann to knock down the door, rush in and rescue his friends in the first example
he's Movement 4 Wits 2 Suave 2 Combat 4--I spend 1 Combat and all movement to knockdown the door (difficulty 5) I am now in the room
and find a guard harassing Johanns ally--so I spend the last 3 combat on KOng the opponant (it only takes 2 points but the GM doesn't actually give
us the rating so I guessed on the high side)

Now I'm left with no movement/Combat and a friend to rescue---but no more challenges await so the friend is rescued and the scene changes
and I'm recharged of points.


Certian challenges require certian actions to result in success for the hero, these challenges are reduced by a level--an easement
if you will if only the points that work best are used.

I wish to outrun my foe--in this case the GM is using the second attribute set, and I'm playing Liam

Liam has MC 3 RC 2 Movement 4 Defense 2 Intelligence 4 Resiliance 2 Will 4

I could use my Intelligence to outwit my foe--hiding somewhere or eluding him with quick thinking buy tricking him into following a false trail, but the
GM feels this situations deserves an easement on out and out running so he assigns a task rating of 4 (which is unknown to me) however that is only if I use
movement, if I try to out with him it will cost 6 total points not just 4.




The idea here isn't to "bid" on a task--even if youhave an opponant the idea is to simply facilitate various actions---basically to help narrate /how/
combing aspects/attributes allows one to come up with a quick resolution and describe what happens---it also allows the opposite a narration translating into an event facilitated mechanically.

For example Grimalkin gets into a fight and takes damage his opponant assigns as "movement" in this case he doesn't have any points left to "buffer it" so he takes a penalty to movement--when his pool recharges he'll still be down for a while in this case: I got hit in the leg.

The same can be done for a variety of effects

"I got hit in the head and am dizzy" loss of Intelligence points.

and so on--and in some cases the loss of actions in that area can be contributed to the event--Guildar the Mighty bursts the iron bands that shackle him but his weak from the effort (he spent all his Might points this scene)



Comments?

[Andrew Martin]

Guildar the Mighty has escaped from the dungeons and freed his friend Grimalkin the Quick. Currently Guildar has run of Might points while Grimalkin still has one Might point. They need to rescue Sheena the Charming from her chains, so the players have Grimalkin break her chains. This result seems strange to me. Why couldn't Guildar the Mighty do it? Why is Grimalkin able to do it? And why couldn't Sheena break free from her chains (like Guildar did) with her one Might point?

[Mike Holmes]

Because it's not Simulationist, Andrew. Priority is on balancing out story outcomes.

Mike

[Andrew Martin]

Because it's not Simulationist, Andrew. Priority is on balancing out story outcomes.

Mike

Doesn't sound like any story I've read.

Why not, instead, let the player have and spend the resources rather than the character?

[Mike Holmes]

Huh? Of course the player has the points. Characters don't exist in case you hadn't noticed.

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

'Scuse me, but I insist that folks present reasoned arguments in essay form rather than shooting one-liners at one another.

There is a system, or concept for a system, that's been presented. Feedback, please.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

Apollogies.

Sidhain, I think that your system is fine in the most general terms. In practive, however, I wonder if the selection of "difficulty" by the GM will just become a matter of adding up the player's efectivenesses, subtracting a couple, and dividing the points about the scene elements. I'm not sure, but this vcould become both monotonous, and predictable. Maybe not, though.

When do "penalties" taken come back? I'massuming case by case depending on their cause? Or does a player have to spend poiints from some pool to "heal"?

Mike

[Sidhain]

As it stands I don't know yet, I jsut hit on an idea while running a Witchcraft game in which I penalized someones speed for being injured and woozy and was thinking "why can't the player inflict wounds on enemies movement in a similar way" thinkinf of them shooting someone in the leg as the impetus, but actually being able to inflict specific penalties/narrative results by directly impactin the characters ability to act.

(Similar to a Stress event in my Hearts and Souls game but manifested differently and more narrowly).


So I started thinking why can't we just give players pools of points to achieve results--somewhat esentially defining the character's capabilities, rather than out and out physicalities--- for example If Johann uses Might, he might define it as "Oh look a crowbar, I use it to lever open the crate" and spend points from his Might pool into being /crowbar/ --if he keeps it, those points are still there, and can be used elsewhere (Combat perhaps).


Does that make sense?



For a penalty to the points how the recharge from penalties would probably depend on the effect and situation---Your character's been shot in the leg, so you expend Suave to talk the off duty nurse into patching you up, while you wait in the bar for your friends to return (rather than following her insistant request to goto the hospital).


I suspect their would also be rechargeless abilities--or levers which recharged certian effects. "Toughness" for example might allow a injury inflicted penalties (as opposed to stress/psychological ones) to be removed sooner....


I was also thinking that spent points are gone only for a scene--however a Gm chooses to define it, but not a significant amount of time. For example Andrews set up would have  Grimalken attempting to free Sheena, but failing (if he only uses strength) then--you see the evil overlords guards tromping to the cells where they escaped saying "Quick, call all the guards Guildar and Graymalkin are free" then back to the recharged pair-- "I can't get it Guildar, wanna lend a hand" --and his massive muscles heave and snap no more chains.

[Andrew Martin]

I was also thinking that spent points are gone only for a scene--however a Gm chooses to define it, but not a significant amount of time. For example Andrews set up would have  Grimalken attempting to free Sheena, but failing (if he only uses strength) then--you see the evil overlords guards tromping to the cells where they escaped saying "Quick, call all the guards Guildar and Graymalkin are free" then back to the recharged pair-- "I can't get it Guildar, wanna lend a hand" --and his massive muscles heave and snap no more chains.

I'm still very confused. Why doesn't Guildar the Mighty simply snap the chains straight away? Logically, he would do this as he can do this as shown by earlier events. After all the only reason why this doesn't happen is because the character doesn't have any Might points left, which is a meta-game situation affecting in-game situation. None of my fellow players would understand this, and I haven't seen a reason for this to help them understand it.

If the character "effectiveness" pools are refilled on a scene change, what to stop the players immediately asking/pleading for a scene change after each use of their character's abilities?

If one is trying to model the exhaustion of the character, surely there are better ways? For example, if Guildar's is exhausted when facing tough situations (snapping chains), then simply giving the character a Exhaustion token or marker for each chain snapping, which acts as a negative modifier or penalty would be a far better model. It's also a logical reason for Guildar not be able to break the third set of chains; he's fatigued by the previous efforts. When Guildar has had a break to recover, the player could remove some or all of these Exhaustion tokens, and be able to operate at partial/full effectiveness. This seems a simple model that fits the actions of the characters.

[Sidhain]

Because the GM isn't the one who necessarily changes the scene---the idea is in part to give players a reason to describe things happenning elsewhere.

[Andrew Martin]

Because the GM isn't the one who necessarily changes the scene---the idea is in part to give players a reason to describe things happenning elsewhere.

Why not do as Fang suggests in one of his essays, reward the players with extra power for putting in cutaways and flashbacks as seems suitable for their characters? Then the action/narration flows naturally from the the actions of the characters, and their thoughts and feelings, combined with karma.

For example, at a tense moment, when Guildar the Mighty is exhausted (has several Exhaustion tokens) and is trying to break the chains around Sheena, a player could describe in cutaway, the approach of several guards, each of which is a match for the PCs who are still unarmed and unarmoured. This supplies a reward to the players who then can spend the reward on success for their characters: "Guildar the Mighty, despite his exhaustion, flexes his mighty muscles and snaps the chains around Sheena!"

This system doesn't break suspension of belief by players, fits logically with the actions of the characters, and, IMO, seems to be a better narrative.

[Sidhain]

Unfortunatly I don't think Exhaustion tokens are any more transparent a mechanic than ITR's points--in fact because they are used as a visual resolution a physical item in the real world they are creating a barrier to SODB--a construct in this reality that is supposed to means something in the fictional one fundamentally works better in my experience when its one entirely in ones head.