Nobilis - really diceless?

[Henry Fitch]

Okay, this is a DFK question instead of a GNS one. Is that okay?

Hope so. Anyway, I'm thinking that Nobilis isn't a fully diceless (i.e. fortuneless) system. When a PC comes into Miraculous conflict with another PC, they need to decide how much of their attribute to use as Miracle levels, and how much to assign to Penetration, and how many MPs to spend on each effect. Doesn't the "guessing game" aspect of this, since it's based on the unknown quantity of the other Noble's Spirit score, constitute a fortune mechanic?

I know this is purely semantic and quibbly. But I'm curious.

[DaR]

In my opinion, no.

As a player, you have full control over the possible outcomes ranging between using none of your resources (MP) and using all of them.  There's nothing outside of your own decision on how to allocate resources that affects how good the character's ending performance is.  At no time does chance enter into that part of the equation.  The success is still in doubt, but it's not because of any factors of luck or fortune, but rather a strict measure of karma (who has the better score and spends the most effort).

I would say that operating from less then omniscience doesn't qualify as being fortune in and of itself.  The classic example of a no-Fortune, entirely Karma based system is Amber Diceless Roleplaying.  There, too, you don't know what your opponent's skill levels necessarily are, particularly if they're not another player character.  But in the end, the decision on the contest comes down to who has the better rank in the appropriate attribute and can maneuver the contest to that realm.

-DaR

[Andrew Martin]

Anyway, I'm thinking that Nobilis isn't a fully diceless (i.e. fortuneless) system. When a PC comes into Miraculous conflict with another PC, they need to decide how much of their attribute to use as Miracle levels, and how much to assign to Penetration, and how many MPs to spend on each effect. Doesn't the "guessing game" aspect of this, since it's based on the unknown quantity of the other Noble's Spirit score, constitute a fortune mechanic?

Let's see. Is there dice (or other similar randomizer) involved? No. So it can't be Fortune. Do the players just decide? No. So it can't be Drama. What's left? Karma. Let's see, do the the players compare descriptor values? Yes. So it's Karma.

Just because the players can manipulate (increase/decrease) descriptor values before the comparison doesn't change Karma to Fortune.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Andrew and Dan are right, as I see it. In Nobilis, my character might have a Domain of 2 and I pump it to a value of 4 with Miracle points. I know I'm putting out a "4," no more and no less. That's Karma.

The unpredictability isn't really the issue at all. Yes, it has a similar effect as a Fortune system, sometimes - especially if you don't know how many points the other guy has going for him. Just like multiple players in a Drama-driven game like Universalis or Soap can have similar effects. But don't mistake the outcome/effect for the system category itself.

Best,
Ron

[Henry Fitch]

Okay, I get it. I was thinking that the whole thing seemed reminiscent of the classic randomizer "guess what number I'm thinking of", but I guess it's pretty different after all.