Making combat less lethal

[Michael Tree]

I havn't bought the Riddle of Steel yet, but I love what I've seen in the quickstart rules and reviews I've read.

Duels have always been the form of combat that most intriques me, both as a player and as a GM, and the tRoS rules look like they have a strategic element that most other games don't have.

However, I tend to run my games fairly fast and loose, and prefer a more cinematic approach to combat lethality.  Does anyone have any suggestions for ways of making the combat system less lethal, without unduly affecting the rest of gameplay?

[Shadeling]

Cinnematic doesn't necessarily mean less lethal mind you. Perhaps by allowing free movements in combat, ie. ones that do not cost CP...that could be a viable option for you.

[Jake Norwood]

I have to completely agree. Lethality is an attitude of play, not the result of using a certain ruleset. We all knew guys who'd kill their whole D&D party off every few games, but I would never think of D&D as a "lethal" game at all.

Cinematic fighting works off of certain assumptions, such as the hero rarely gets hit--not that he can take more punishment. Make sure their opponents have significantly smaller CPs and that the heros have a high TO. It'll kill some of the intensity (I promise), but it will be "safer."

Jake

[Mike Holmes]

Are you remembering to use your SAs?

The game is most fun when an otherwise near even matchup is decided because the PC wants it more, and has the SA dice to back it up. That's the best way to get to Jake's disparity criteria without losing any tension. In fact, the tension actually increases.

Mike

[Stephen]

SAs are definitely the best way to make sure fights take on a cinematic quality of action while retaining the familiar TROS grittiness.

Noncinematic lethality generally means "my player got seriously maimed or killed by a fight that was supposed to be just a piece of eye-candy distraction, which seriously derailed the story".  This, unfortunately, can be very common in TROS as well, especially with a new Seneschal or players who aren't quite used to how deadly "casual" fights suddenly become.  Just off the top of my head, here's a suggestion as to how to change things slightly -- this WILL give a different feel to combat, though, so use with caution.

For PCs and important NPCs, use a modification of the damage rules.  Instead of every success over your opponent's TO + AV equalling a level of wound, the successes required to score a wound are as follows:

Level 0 = 0
Level 1 = 1 success
Level 2 = 2-3 successes
Level 3 = 4-5 successes
Level 4 = 6-7 successes
Level 5 = 8+ successes

This means that "one-shot" takedowns will become considerably rarer -- winning a fight requires gradually chipping away at someone with a series of small wounds until you reduce their CP to the point where the one-shot drops become possible.  (Which is what happens anyway, this just makes it take a little longer, and gives PCs a chance to think of a way out of a fight they've realized they can't handle.)

[Judd]

Isn't the romantic idea of casual fighting going against what TROS is all about?

This seems to me to be a game that forces players to deal with the very real physical consequences of violence.  I understand that some players will want to still have cinematic fights against comic book villains and that's fine.

I realize there is no right or wrong way to play and if y'all are having fun with a more cinematic style that's fine.  I'm not saying it is wrong but just wanted to chime in and say that I LIKE that players can get maimed by an incidental fight.

It means that fights aren't romantic but brutal and scary and unless they are about something really important to the character are to be generally avoided.

[Valamir]

There have been alot of really good threads about how TROS isn't really as lethal as it might seem you should probably check out.    

Don't forget the little used "I surrender move".  Most times I've died in the Combat Simulator I KNEW it was coming an exchange or two in advance.  I could tell by who had initiative and what the dice pools looked like that I was in trouble.  I could have quit then and lived (probably would have if it were a real game).  About 3/4s of the time the system gave me a second or even a third chance to surrender.  This usually comes when you've got only 1-2 (or 0) dice in your pool due to shock on top of extended pain penelties, when you're bleeding profusely and relying on lucky rolls to not lose health.   Its a pretty rare occurance (given that dice pools tend towards a mean result) to get a lucky instant kill blow against a fully healthy, prepared, equal opponent.

But, if you're looking for a mechanic to help with those occassions (and Paka's right, part of the appeal of TROS is that those occassions, while rare, are not impossible and that players should chose to fight or not with that in mind) you really can just steal the concept of Drama Dice right out of 7th Sea.  Award it for whatever level of derring do and swashbuckling cinema you want to encourage, and allow it to be spent on extra dice to roll (like Luck).

[Jake Norwood]

Actually, Ralph's right. "Drama dice" are perhaps the best easy-fix for "cinematic" combat in TROS, without losing the grit and strategy. Just remove the 5-point cap to Luck (and make it 10 or 15 or nothing) and really jazz things up.

Jake

[Mike Holmes]

The above reminds me of another technique. As GM, fight poorly. Make bad choices. Often this will go completely unnoticed. Further, if done correctly, it can actaully simulate things. That is, not every character should have the full tactical ability of the GM. Some will just not make the right choices at every turn. Lots of reasons for why this could happen. As GM use this fact to allow the PCs to shine.

If you want players to mow down a pile of inexperienced mooks really fast (faster than normal), just have them drop red and charge with all their dice repeatedly representing their lack of good training. Or have them completely defend even when they outnumber the characters. The players can assume that it's their backgrounds that are making them even more successful, as they know better than to use such terrible tactics.

I saw Jake use it a couple of times to save my beginner's arse from bad moves on my part, I think. :-)

Mike

[Michael Tree]

Noncinematic lethality generally means "my player got seriously maimed or killed by a fight that was supposed to be just a piece of eye-candy distraction, which seriously derailed the story".  This, unfortunately, can be very common in TROS as well, especially with a new Seneschal or players who aren't quite used to how deadly "casual" fights suddenly become.

That's certainly part of what I mean.  TROS would be perfect for a game with similar themes to The Three Musketeers, except that the heroes of that story (and others like it) fight fairly regularly, but are never killed or seriously injured.

I don't want characters to be able to take numerous wounds, or be hit without becoming injured, I just want characters to be able to limp away from fights where they were trounced, without being killed or suffering debilitating injuries, and without the opponent deliberately letting them go.  It seems difficult in TROS to incapacitate a character without killing him.

When a character has his arse handed to him by an opponent, I want the player to be thinking "ooo, I'm going to get back at him, mark my words", not "I wonder what kind of character I want to play next."

<snip interesting variant>

This means that "one-shot" takedowns will become considerably rarer -- winning a fight requires gradually chipping away at someone with a series of small wounds until you reduce their CP to the point where the one-shot drops become possible.  (Which is what happens anyway, this just makes it take a little longer, and gives PCs a chance to think of a way out of a fight they've realized they can't handle.)

That's an interesting variation.  I think I would be more likely to modify the damage tables somewhat to make defeat just as likely, but maiming and death much less likely.

[Michael Tree]

Cinematic fighting works off of certain assumptions, such as the hero rarely gets hit--not that he can take more punishment. Make sure their opponents have significantly smaller CPs and that the heros have a high TO.

I think you're right on the money about heroes rarely getting hit.  Now that I think about it, another way to make a game feel more cinematic is to put the players up against "mooks", to borrow a term from Feng Shui.  In the Three Musketeers, it's only when the characters are up against their arch rivals that they are actually in danger of being killed.

[Ashren Va'Hale]

actually, as far as dramatic fighting goes, I have a character who has been in literally hundreds of fights and has not been hit once.... the secret, play smart and sa's baby. Seriously, think about the whole situation and strategerize. Use your specific advantages and maneuvers to the maximum advantage and ALWAYS save one luck die so you can burn it permanently to save your butt if things go bad.

Cool story about lethal dramatic combat- my character is surrounded by baddies, one big baddie is blocking the escape route so my character has to dispatch him fast, so the combat goes red-red and my character wins the contest of reflex, the baddie declares and evasive attack (the onlygood red red maneuver in his proficiency) while my charcter declares  the same, commits a few dice to raise the ATN and a measly 2 to attack, the baddie spent so many to raise my ATN that I had mnore dice than him on the second exchange when his base CP was 25% more than mine, so I half sworded (he was in plate) to his groin and tossed in all my dice plus all applicable SA's minus one luck die and shishkabobed the baddies manhood (he did not possess the special skill). he went down and down hard making escape viable.

I guess the other crucial aspect of dramatic lethal combat is knowing when to trya a cobbs traverse (aka run like hell).

[Michael Tree]

I'm intruiged.  How does this permanently spending a luck die work?

[Ashren Va'Hale]

read up under the SA section about luck and it mentions how a luck die can be spent permanently for an instant success in anything out of the hands of teh character. the example is a die being burnt off to have a cart of hay at the bottom of a tower after the character jumps out a tower. In my campaign the players are allowed to use a luckdie when things go south in combat in order to stay alive. This allows for drama and lethality. It also adds to tension because you DO NOT want to lose the luck die permanently since you can not use it then to build up a stat or build up insight.