Donjon combat with six-siders

[ethan_greer]

Has anyone tried using 6-siders for the initiative rolls in a flurry?  If so, how'd it go?

I'm planning on trying this myself at some point, but any wisdom y'all could impart would be useful to me.
-e.

[Valamir]

One of the potential issues in Donjon depends on how over the top vs "realistic" the combat is intended to be.  

The single most important thing you can have as a character who is supposed to be a combat god is a whomping high initiative score.  More important than strength more important than skill is how many times you can attack.  If the characters are supposed to be Hong Kong Action Ninjaz (hows that for mixing cultures...) this isn't so bad.  But for a more "serious" donjon romp it can become an issue where the weak incompetant thief is a more effective fighter than the big barbarian because he gets 3 times as many actions.

One "solution" I came up with to this (and I put that in "quote" because its not always a problem that needs solved) is
1) to roll initiative on a smaller dice size than d20s (I'd always use d10s for everything anyway because I have a ton and what d20s I have can also double as d10 when needed). and.
2) to discard duplicate rolls.  So when using d10s no one could have more than 10 actions ever, and if using d6s no one could have more than 6.  Having Initiative scores higher than this would merely increase the likely hood of getting the maximum number possible.  This evens the playing field a little and cuts down on the dominance of the initiative stat and initiative enhancing skills.
3) Optionally, instead of discarding the matched dice, those dice can be saved and used for free dice for the roll for that action.  So if I roll three 3s, instead of getting 3 actions on phase 3, I get 1 action on phase three with +2 dice on that action.

Again, only an issue if you want to prevent super speedy Ninjaz from cuisinarting your barbarians (how's that for verbizing a noun.)

[Wulf]

The single most important thing you can have as a character who is supposed to be a combat god is a whomping high initiative score.  More important than strength more important than skill is how many times you can attack.  If the characters are supposed to be Hong Kong Action Ninjaz (hows that for mixing cultures...) this isn't so bad.  But for a more "serious" donjon romp it can become an issue where the weak incompetant thief is a more effective fighter than the big barbarian because he gets 3 times as many actions.

Hmm... I'd have to disagree with that almost in it's entirety... Sorry about that :-)

In my experience (in re-enactment with steel swords, and LiveRolePlaying with latex ones), it doesn't matter how fast the little gnats are, if you can hit them once and knock them down.

The real problem is that everyone in Donjon starts equal, and generally faces fairly equal opposition. Combat Gods are BETTER than the rest, they don't have to be faster. They may only have Discernment 2, but they've got Hit Things with Things 10, Virility 6, Wherewithall 8, Big Sword 4 and Armour 4 (from the perspective of a starter character). They don't even need a high Adroitness, so long as it's decent.

All they need is to hit (actually hit, not just try) first, and it's a done deal. The gnat can slap ineffectually all day, trying, and failing, to hurt them. The number of slaps is only important if you are close to equal.

Wulf

[Valamir]

In my experience (in re-enactment with steel swords, and LiveRolePlaying with latex ones), it doesn't matter how fast the little gnats are, if you can hit them once and knock them down.

Ummm, right.  But how does that experience have anything to do with how combat works in Donjon.  In Donjon, I'll take an extra 3 attacks over an extra 3 dice worth of damage or to-hit anyday of the week.  Its precisely because I agree with you that if one wants a more realistic bent to combat that the effectiveness of Init boosters should be toned down.

Its the way the system works.  Once you have enough dice to have a good chance to randomly generate a high-ish number you've effectively capped the maximum number of successes your opponent is going to get.  If I have enough dice that I can be reasonably certain of getting at least a 15 or better on my high die, than only the dice you roll that are higher than that are going to count as successes.  With a single high roll (and enough dice to make one more likely than not) I can block the vast majority of dice you roll.

If you and I have identical stats in all ways, then I take a skill that gives me 5 extra attacks, and you take one that gives you 5 extra dice to roll on a to hit, I will slaughter you 9 times in 10.  5 extra attacks is simply that much better than a +5 to hit in Donjon.

Unless I'm still playing with an old version and thats been changed...IIRC there is actually an example in the Donjon rules of "Crazy Ninja Speed" adding to the initiative.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Ralph,

You've got the execution wrong. There is still an example, IIRC, of "Crazy Ninja Speed" or something like that. The rules explicitly state that nothing can add to the dice rolled in initiative except successes from another roll. So, you could surprise someone, adding those successes as extra init dice, or roll Adr + Super-Speed vs current DL and add those successes, but you can't just tack a skill onto the initiative roll.

[ethan_greer]

That's all well and good, and interesting.  However, the question is, has anyone used 6-siders in Donjon combat?  Clinton has stated somewhere that he uses 10-siders in Donjon, as does Valamir above.  (Valamir, why the heck would you have a lot of 10-siders? ;) )

I guess what I'm looking for is whether the smaller die sizes make the flurries more round-robin to the detriment of combat in general.  Thoughts?

[Bailywolf]

One thing I've been playing with is setting some kind of Speed limits on weapons used in combat.  You know in action movies (think LoTR) when the badass is chopping left, chopping right, he always seems to punch or kick someone between sword thrusts?  I haven't found a terribly satisfying way of representing this... exept as follows.  Weapons have a Speed determined by comparing the extra damage they can do to their workmanship (better quaility, higher speed to damage ratio).  Magicalness can increase this as well.   Speed then is simply the maximum number of times in a given round the weapon can be used.  You have a mad ass +9 Axe... it might only have a Speed of 1... you can only use those extra damage dice once per round... while the guy with the +1 damage dagger can use his upwards on 9 times.  Magic weapons (especialy of elven make) have their speed bought up with magical quailities.  Unarmed or natural attacks have a speed equal to your initiative.

This sort of mod can alter the way a round flows, perhaps aleviating some of the concerns other have expressed with the actions per round (a problem I don't really have myself).

[Wulf]

Edited for a different take on my answer.

If you and I have identical stats in all ways, then I take a skill that gives me 5 extra attacks, and you take one that gives you 5 extra dice to roll on a to hit, I will slaughter you 9 times in 10.  5 extra attacks is simply that much better than a +5 to hit in Donjon.

Aha, but there's the point... 'If you and I have identical stats...' then neither of us (or both of us) is a Combat God in relation to one another! Even ignoring the bit about skills not improving Initiative, my point is not 'more attacks is not a good thing', but 'more attacks is no good if you're just plain inferior'. There are, certainly, many ways to become superior in combat, but you can't do all of them. Extra Initiative means extra Discernment, which probably means less on some other attribute important to combat. Attributes rise slower than skills, and there's quickly going to be a point where you'll be wishing you had more Wherewithall or Virility. You can hit as often as you like, but you have to actually DO something with the hit.

To put it another way, there ARE NO level 1 Combat Gods. There's not enough differentiation between characters. When you get to level 3 or more, you can start to see the heavy hitters and the gnats. You might see a whirling buzzsaw of blades, hacking away at the Big Guy in the Death of a Thousand Cuts, while he swings wildly and clumsily, probably grunting inarticulately. I see a frantic and increasingly desperate gnat hunting for a weak point to exploit before he gets put down by the Big Guy, who is carefully, patiently, waiting for the right opening, shrugging off the ineffectual gnat stings until the moment he smaks it down and leaves nothing more than a greasy stain.

As for D6, apart from the fact, clearly, I don't see the need, I would think it would mean too many ties, and in initiative that just feels like everything is too rushed.

Wulf

[quozl]

Speaking of alternate initiative systems (which it seems this thread has turned into), I was thinking about taking a cue from Deadlands and using a deck of cards.  Any cons that I'm not aware of?

As to the D6 alternate, I agree with everyone else that more ties would be a bad thing (although I like Valamir's idea of using ties as bonus dice).

[Wulf]

One thing I've been playing with is setting some kind of Speed limits on weapons used in combat.  

This sounds good, except that it sort of ties Initiative in with physical activity. Slow weapons can be used in fewer Initiative points. But in Donjon Initiative is tied to Discernment, not Adroitness. This suggests that each initiative point is an ability to spot an opening, and has nothing to do with physical speed. A 'flurry' is not a fixed ammount of time, neither need be an initiative point. There can be highly variable pauses between attacks.

However, I like the idea of some form of incentive to vary attacks.

Wulf

[Bailywolf]

I make no mechanical justification for it, rather I like the way it simulates the sort of cinematic fighting I like.  If you can strike with your sword every time for more damage, then why would you ever resort to the cinematic hero's punch in the chops?  Though it diesn't limit the number of times a character could act in a fight, rather it limits their options based on the weapon's heft.  You can still spot that opening, but if you can't... quite... get... the... blade... around.... you have to just slug the bastard instead.

[Valamir]

Ralph,

You've got the execution wrong. There is still an example, IIRC, of "Crazy Ninja Speed" or something like that. The rules explicitly state that nothing can add to the dice rolled in initiative except successes from another roll. So, you could surprise someone, adding those successes as extra init dice, or roll Adr + Super-Speed vs current DL and add those successes, but you can't just tack a skill onto the initiative roll.

Hmmm, I just checked my copy and you are correct.  I must have been remembering it from the playtest version and not realized you changed it.  At least I suspect that's the case, because I also cannot find the "crazy ninja speed" example.  Instead there is a "Speed of the Ancients" example which actually does read like you can add the ability directly to initiative, except that the section on initiative prevents that.

Sooo given that I've gotten that entirely wrong the above fix is to a problem that apparently has not existed for many months...teach me not to read the rules closer ;-)

[jdagna]

Re: d6's

Yes, I've played Donjon using nothing but d6's.  It actually works out fine.  The only issue is that the number of ties tends to increase the number of successes, thus you're more likely to have a few powerful attacks than a lot of weak ones.  This is great for people who want to speed combat up, but out of combat, you often get so many facts you're not sure what to do with them all (which I guess isn't really a problem in itself).

I didn't notice a big difference regarding initiative on d6s versus d10 or d20.  It was still dominated by people who had many actions and didn't seem to spread attacks more equally than the other dice. I don't think there's any real difference in this regard.

[Valamir]

Sooo given that I've gotten that entirely wrong the above fix is to a problem that apparently has not existed for many months...teach me not to read the rules closer ;-)

Ok, I went and played with some numbers and you can still add a pretty significant number of actions to each round even using the roll and add rather than direct add method.  You can't really make the difficulty high enough to cause regular failure because then you're essentially castrating the character's prime area of effectiveness...so skills like "Speed of the Ancients" would have to work often enough and well enough to uphold the character concept as a speedster and be worth spending a skill slot on.

Given that its pretty easy to be adding 3-5 additional actions to ones initiative roll.  Its not automatically a fixed amount like I had been thinking it was, it is more random, but its still enough for combat to become dominated by the guy with more actions...ESPECIALLY since a character who takes such an ability as his schtick has likely already designed the character to have a high base initiative anyway.

This works well if playing in a kung-fu "blazing fists of speed" type setting, but for a more traditional dungeon crawl can be imbalancing.

Sooo, I'm kinda back to thinking the above solution I first posted can be a useful way to cut down on the number of actions.  

I hadn't meant to derail Ethan's question about using d6s, the point I was trying to make is simply that I've used the above method with d10s to curb action inflation.  If one wanted to curb action inflation even more going to d6s would do it.

To address Jdag's point, the key part to curbing actions by using smaller die types is to discard tied dice (only 1 action per phase).  There aren't many ties on d20s so I went to d10s...but d6s would cap maximum actions at 6.  Initiative enhancing skills would then primarily increase the odds of getting maximum actions.

Anyway.  as I said.  Its only an issue if you want to demphasize the importance of having alot of actions to combat effectiveness.

[Shawn Conard]

What level characters are you using for the examples?

It seems to me that this isn't even an issue in higher level games.  Without a "do extra damage" type skill, the speedy guy will be unable to hurt tough monsters.  Now, I won't argue the fact that being quick and strong is better than being strong.  But if you have to choose between the two, just keep in mind that after a while (ie, once Abilities start to dominate Attributes) it gets very difficult to hurt tough things unless you are strong.

That said, at high levels everyone has way too many initiative dice anyway, so there is nothing wrong with trying to keep initiative under control.

~Shawn Conard