The Rise of the Nihilists: System Mechanics

[Gwen]

It seemed apparent in my other thread that perhaps I would be better served to adopt a system mechanic more befitting the odd, dream-lyke setting I created.

I suppose it would be best to lay down the basics on what I have now and then perhaps absorb advice from the Forge to make it more setting appropriate.

There are seven attributes, which mainly represent a vauge aspect of the character:  (All dice ever used are d6)

Strength:  Combat Damage
Dexterity:  Speed and # of Combat Actions
Fitness:  Stamina and Immune System
Education:  Knowledge skills...
Wisdom:  Perception/Willpower
Charm:  Reputation
Quintessence (Quin):  Magic Capacity

Each attribute ranges from 0-6.

Now, as was covered in the other thread, this game is not really Attribute + Skill.  (Only in the case of Quin + Alchemy, which I think wa smisleading that this was the case for all skills.)

You see, the physical and mental attributes are added to eachother and averaged out.

Strength + Dexterity + Fitness / 3 = Raw Physical Prowess  (Raw Phys.)
Education + Wisdom + Charm / 3 = Raw Mental Capacity  (Raw Ment.)

Now, the Raw Physical Prowess and the Raw Mental Capacity will also range from 0 - 6 and this is the number that is added to the skill for the purposes of task resolution.

This, essentially, prevents the GURPS example of Micro-Managing building points.  There is a point where purchasing X amount of skill points costs more than just raising the attribute, but with this system, increasing the attribute does not immediatly help the skills.

So, in the case where a player can pay either 8 points for skills or 8 points to raise Strength, raising Strength only has 1/3 of an impact on the skills, discouraging this manner of creation.

This is not the case in Quin + Alchemy, but we've discussed other methods of maintaining balance there (from the skill meaning better potions, smaller potions, cheaper potions) which I believe are all good and useable ideas.

Now, the average attribute with be 3, meaning the average Phys. Prowess and Ment. Capacity will be 3.  The average skill is also 3, so a typical task resolution will result in the rolling of 6d6.  Having extrely low or extremely high numbers for task resolution is very hard to acheive, because that means all the attributes must be very high or very low.

For example, a character with Strength of 10 (a Godly Strength) is not going to be Godly with a sword if his Dexterity is 3 and his Fitness is 3, because their Raw Physcial Prowess is only 5.  (average and round)

So the only way to really excell in a skill it to be well rounded attribute wise.

I believe this makes sense, because a weightlifter can lift a lot if he's strong, but he won't be a very good weight lifter if he's out of shape.  Dexterity can be a stretch, but things like jump rope, bicycling, jogging, etc... make the Raw Phsyical Prowess rating a good idea  (IMHO)

So the average roller is rolling 6d6.  Target number is 4 or better, and is ALWAYS 4 or better.  The difficulty is established by the number of successes that must be rolled.

Easy - 2 successes
Average - 3 successes
Tricky - 4 successes
Difficult - 5 successes
Very Difficult - 6 successes
Improbable - 7 successes
Ungodly - 8 successes

Consider a d6 will roll a 4 or better 50% of the time.  That means twice the amount of necessary successes is the "average" number of dice necessary to succeed.

Easy - 4 dice
Average - 6 dice  (As we said, this is the average amount of dice)
Tricky - 8 dice
Difficult - 10 dice
Very Difficult - 12 dice (This is the normal human maximum, which is very hard to reach)
Improbable- 14 dice
Ungoldy - 16 dice

From the system I already presented, getting to 16 dice would involve some serious magic equipment and outside modifiers.

Now, this is the system I already have figured out.  I'm sorry I layed it out so poorly.  But where might I make changes to make the system more non-trad?  Or is it non-trad enough?

[szilard]

Just one quick thought regarding a potential issue before I run to catch the bus home... When you divide three stats by 3, you may create a threshholding effect.

Stuart

[Mike Holmes]

I think we need to go even one step further back. What's this game supposed to be about? Is the potion thing central? Or was that just a peripheral thing. What do characters do in this game?

Mike

[marknau]

This, essentially, prevents the GURPS example of Micro-Managing building points. There is a point where purchasing X amount of skill points costs more than just raising the attribute, but with this system, increasing the attribute does not immediatly help the skills.

But increasing the attribute by 3 points does. And you've also got severe threshhold problems, which was pointed out.

Do the individual attributes come into play? Why do they exist, if they just get combined into Raw Physical and Raw Mental? Why not just have two attributes?

Also, your system has the following effect:
Hulk has STR 7, DEX 2, FIT 3
Fineous has STR 2, DEX 7, FIT 3

For all physical skills, they each have a attribute base of 4. For both lockpicking and weight lifting, these two guys are the same raw material. The same amount of training in either skill will make them equally good. At which point I wonder why you're bothering to have attributes.

[Gwen]

But increasing the attribute by 3 points does.

True, but 3 points in an attribute i quite expensive.  Plus, there are starting attribute caps which make the trade-off impossible.  Attributes cannot go above 6 starting out, unlike the open-endedness of GURPS attributes.

And you've also got severe threshhold problems, which was pointed out.

Not too sure what threshhold problems you're referring to.

Do the individual attributes come into play?

They sure do:
Strength: Combat Damage
Dexterity: Speed and # of Combat Actions
Fitness: Stamina and Immune System
Education: Knowledge skills...
Wisdom: Perception/Willpower
Charm: Reputation
Quintessence (Quin): Magic Capacity

Also, your system has the following effect:
Hulk has STR 7, DEX 2, FIT 3
Fineous has STR 2, DEX 7, FIT 3

For all physical skills, they each have a attribute base of 4. For both lockpicking and weight lifting, these two guys are the same raw material. The same amount of training in either skill will make them equally good. At which point I wonder why you're bothering to have attributes.

The Raw Physical Prowess and Raw Mental Capacity is simply an easy way to make the attributes assist in task resolution.  Opposed to knowing "okay, lockpicking is a Dexterity skill" and "weightlifting is a fitness skill" it is as simple as "this physical skill is related to the Physical Prowess."

You are wondering why not use a system with no attributes.  In a system with no attributes, wouldnt the same amount of training for lockpicking and weightlifting work equally as well for Hulk and Fineous?

The problems you bring up are matters that the game isn't specific enough.  That the "theif" isn't more nimble as the "warrior."  If I remove the Raw Physical Prowess and the Raw Mental Capacity, then the game has just become more complicated.  Complications slow up game play and that's what I am againt.

Why not have just have Prowess and Mental Capacity as the ONLY 2 attributes?  Because then everyone runs the same speed.  Everyone carries the same weight.  Everyone is equally as charming.

I am trying to avoid a system where everyone is an exact clone of everyone else except for their occasional quirk written on the back of a notebook card.

Do "Really Love Math" and "Drives Tank +1" really set someone apart from a guy who has "Drives race cars" and "Collects WW2 gear"?  Who would beat who to a dropped weapon?  Could one carry the other if they were knocked unconcious?

This game is intended to be a collection of flaws and detrimental battle scars.  Players collect unfortunate curses that turn their legs into clockwork legs and turn their hands into fish heads?  The only way to really enjoy these is by knowing what they actually DO to your character.

The inclusion of the 7 attributes is for this purpose.  The use of the Physical Prowess and Mental Capacity is for simplicity there-after.

[Garbanzo]

Gwen:

"Threshhold problems" refer to the fact that it's going to be advantageous to buy up attributes to certain artificial breakpoints.  So, if my three physical attributes are 2, 2, and 2, I'm going to get no advantage from a one point increase.  Ditto if they're 5, 3, 1.  Fresh-built characters will tend to just qualify for their derived value, with no excess.  And there will be uneven improvement also - bumping up the first two points gives less bang-for-the-buck than that third point.

This artificial lumpiness is a common concern with derived values.


My question is this:

When will characters be using the derived value and when an attribute?  Attributes are commonly designed to be descriptors of The Whole Gamut of possible actions.  Under what circumstances, then, would they be insufficiently applicable?

I'm getting different impressions from your different examples.  If we can all agree that "lockpicking" is Dex, then why wouldn't the weightlifter from your first post be pure strength?  I'm seeing a potential problem in differentiating between single-attribute actions and derived-attribute actions.  
I feel like I could describe anything as a single-attribute action - we've all got years of experience at it!  Do you have clear guidelines for the distinction?

--Maybe the "raw physical/ mental" as a modifier to *all* actions.  This way, a character's overall would be taken into account, but not by losing the applicable attribute.

-Matt