Newbie looking for critizism...

[Mike Holmes]

Christoffer (Plae Fire) has it right. And Mark has nailed the direction in which the next set of questions must go.

What are your goals for this game? What's tha audience? Why are you here looking for criticism? What needs fixing?

See, your game is perfect as it is. With your D&D clone with early 80's skill system tacked on will work great with the setting that you describe. I can't see anything that needs fixing.

As for the storytelling/rules issue, you missed my point entirely. I'm not saying that the silly little system I made is any better than yours. I could have as easily proposed a system where I roll 1d6, and the PC is successful on a 4-6. My point is exactly the point you made.

As far as execution goes over simplification is not automatically superior.

That's exactly what I was pointing out about your system. Simple is not better (nor worse, actually). Elegant is better. Elegance refering to creating mechanics that, while not complex, also deliver a lot of information, or make play interestingly complex. What you have is so simple, that it removes resolution almost completely from the realm of interest. Which is fine if that's what you want. But saying that it's a feature that's specific to this game is ludicrous. You realize that there are people who play with almost no rules at all who would say that your system is senselessly complex? It's just a choice.

Again, you seem very confident in the amount of complexity that you've chosen, so I can't criticize your system for that. From the sounds of it, you seem to feel that systems tend to direct people in the wrong directions. We'd agree with you on that, or rather, read the System Matters essay in the articles section. Then read the GNS essay to see why you feel the way you do.

But it's ironic that you seem to feel that you need to keep a drastically reduced EXP system when you've correctly identified that as the problem. Many, many systems out there have come up with all sorts of excellent ways around the problem. The thing is, you have so little experience (apparently) outside of D&D that even after ten years of tinkering, you're still making derivative games. Your assumption that you need an EXP system and that characters have to "advance" via such methods is telling.

What else have you played? Did you read the rant? Until you realize the spectrum of available games out there, you're going to be continuing to work on a heartbreaker. And while that's true, I just can't see what sort of useful information we can give you.

Am I any more clear now? What sort of information are you looking for?

Mike

[Lugaru]

Pale fire: Im glad that your still working on it... there is never a good reason to abandon a hobby. I mean its fun, and if challanges arise (like trying to be original) well all the more reason to work on it.

Here's my point really. Im not a car buff... I really cant tell a bettle appart from a buwik (or whoever it's spelled) so my philosophy would basically be "Why do these idiots need to design new cars every year? Wherent they good enough in the 50's?"

I think there's a lott of people who would slap me if I said this.

Same with RPG's... lots of people prefer a "minimalistic" aproach to gaming... but personally I think there is still a LOTT left to be done for the gamist, wargaming and simulation style genres. My mission is to make gaming in that style much less time consuming without losing the "math can be fun" element. Hopefully I can come up with something new (I've already had a few people ask permition to use my ACE, War and combat mechanics). Secondly I have the nasty embarrasement of getting posts on my website (ok... a couple) asking me when the game will be done... like you Pale fire I've moved from computer to computer quite a bit (Moved from Mexico to West Virginia, and from WV to Boston) so setbacks abound.

Mark: As for what troubles me in my game... I think currently my main concern is magic. My gut instinct make's me want to make magic like lego's... you put togeter a bunch of factors (distances, effects and all that), add the cost and execute the spell. The problem is that this is time consuming and in some gaming setions it turned players away from using heavily magic oriented characters... at most sometimes they would have a muscle heavy guy who would always use the same 2 spells.

My current aproach to it is making mechanics as to what a spell is made out of, and then allowing players to build their own spells if they want. If they dont want, they just use the spell list. Still, spell lists tend to conjure up nasty after tastes of other fantasy game's when I mention it on a thread. On the other hand learning more type's of spells (elemental, necromancy, illusion, etc) allow's give's you more building blocks to make more complex spells... so hopefully that might make up for it. Kinda like "every one will do the same stuff with A and with B... but different people will do different things when mixing A and B".

I dont know... Ive never been too great at magic mechanics. Secondly Im still wondering what to do about Xp... I mean the D&D system simply wont do... my "purchase learning points with xp you get every time you do something difficult (win an even fight, solve a tough riddle, stay in character despite the odds)" will probably make advancement eighter too hard or too easy. Also its hard to tell when challanges become a rutine... I mean with combat its kinda clear (if your wounded, it wasent too easy) but with lock picking and problem solving things are less clear. Are there any just REALLY GOOD Xp systems out there? I dont want to play without experience, since again Im going for a sense of familiarity with faster mechanics.

[Valamir]

Ok, Lu, I'd really love to be able to help you.  But no one here is going to be able to if you keep intentionally missing the point.  You seem to have an image in your head that goes like this "The Forge is all about minimalist bleeding edge game designs, we don't like old school designs, you think there is potential in old school designs but we keep telling you it needs to be new to be good".

Put that out of your head immediately or you will get no benefit from this web site.  It is simply not true.  The Forge doesn't give a rat's ass about new being better than old, about minimal being better than complex.  [caveat:  there are a couple folk here who would say that, but they haven't posted to this thread and there are equally folks here who'd say the opposite]

That dichotomy is simply NOT what Mike is talking about.  In fact, Mike LOVES crunchy wargame systems.  For you to be thinking otherwise demonstrates you are completely missing the point.

I will attempt to use your current post to illuminate the issue.

Here's my point really. Im not a car buff... I really cant tell a bettle appart from a buwik (or whoever it's spelled) so my philosophy would basically be "Why do these idiots need to design new cars every year? Wherent they good enough in the 50's?"

I think there's a lott of people who would slap me if I said this.

Same with RPG's... lots of people prefer a "minimalistic" aproach to gaming... but personally I think there is still a LOTT left to be done for the gamist, wargaming and simulation style genres. My mission is to make gaming in that style much less time consuming without losing the "math can be fun" element. Hopefully I can come up with something new

That's the point.  You aren't.  The above analogy is a good one...but you have it BACKWARDS.  YOU are the one designing the "new" car and WE are the ones telling you that there are already Buick's from the 50s that do exactly what your game does.  

My current aproach to it is making mechanics as to what a spell is made out of, and then allowing players to build their own spells if they want. If they dont want, they just use the spell list. Still, spell lists tend to conjure up nasty after tastes of other fantasy game's when I mention it on a thread. On the other hand learning more type's of spells (elemental, necromancy, illusion, etc) allow's give's you more building blocks to make more complex spells... so hopefully that might make up for it. Kinda like "every one will do the same stuff with A and with B... but different people will do different things when mixing A and B".

Are you even aware that there are dozens...DOZENS of games that do this.  Let me enlighten you abit:

Duel, Ars Magica, Fantasy Wargaming, The Riddle of Steel, Sovereign Stone (including the d20 version).  

These are just a few (if pressed this list could be expanded enormously) that I saw from a quick glance at my game shelf.  These are games THAT ALREADY DO the lego spell building thing.  Maybe better, maybe worse than what you could come up with.

Have you sought out and read any of these?  Have you played them?  Have you taken the benefit of seeing what they did and how they did it and what worked well and what didn't?

I dont know... Ive never been too great at magic mechanics.

Then why reinvent the wheel by yourself?

Secondly Im still wondering what to do about Xp... I mean the D&D system simply wont do... my "purchase learning points with xp you get every time you do something difficult (win an even fight, solve a tough riddle, stay in character despite the odds)" will probably make advancement eighter too hard or too easy. Also its hard to tell when challanges become a rutine... I mean with combat its kinda clear (if your wounded, it wasent too easy) but with lock picking and problem solving things are less clear. Are there any just REALLY GOOD Xp systems out there? I dont want to play without experience, since again Im going for a sense of familiarity with faster mechanics.

Oh man...Lu...you're making me weep here.  Are there any really good XP systems out there?  Are you aware of the HUNDREDS of different gaming titles in existance?  Have you ever seen Basic Role Playing which dates back to right about the Bronze Age and includes games like Call of Cthulhu, and Pendragon.  Thats an XP system FAR FAR different from XPs.   Have you seen The Riddle of Steel?  Thats an XP system FAR FAR differend from either D&D XPs or BRP (and IMO superior to both).

Are there any good experience systems...my God Lu, there are dozens.

THATS the point of Mike's Rant #1.  If you haven't seen these games, if you haven't played them.  Then put down your pen.  Go out, get them, read them, and absorb the things that they did well and the things that they did poorly.  THEN start writing your game again.

The thoughts you are struggling with, the indecision, other game designers have struggled with finding solutions to the exact same problems that you are now...since the 70s!!!

If you aren't familiar with what they've done...chances are you're just going to come up with a game that looks exactly like the games they came up with.  Only you'll think its new and innovative...which is really what the Fantasy Heartbreaker article was about.

My advice, in all seriousness.   Do Gamist Wargaming Sim.  Do something new that will add to the hobby.  A FANTASTIC goal.  But do your homework first or you're never going to get something more than a personal homebrew system that satisfies you and your gaming group only (which is a fine goal in and of itself, but we can't really help with that here).

[Lugaru]

First... weird thing... somehow my post got posted after Holme's so I missed his advice. Let me see if I can organize my thougths for a second... what I meant in the first place is "does this setting sound Ok". I got a "nothing new, but as good or bad as any thing esle in the genre... keep the whales". Ok..

Second.. play more games. Mmm... Im not really going to invest into gaming though (like I said, Im groupless and looking at some pretty long work hours starting really soon). As far as free stuff goes, Im all up for sugestions! I mean yeah, the whole spectrum of my experience is: D&D... my first crappy home modified version of D&D, a few more of my own games (all generes and diff. styles), some VTM (never got too into it... the people I played it with played totally fight oriented, which the rules arent too great for).

Old car/new car: You know what I mean... Im trying to do something cool here but its still going to have 4 wheels, a motor and doors. Im just glad we got past the "why the heck do I need a new car" and got to the point where I can talk about what's under the hood.

About my game... let me put the whole "fighting back" thing aside...

Im not satisfied with:
-Xp system
-Magic system
-My total inability to create fantasy names (hehe, dont worry about that line though).

'Bout the system... Im keeping it. It seems simple but any roll offers up to 7 diff results (all sorts of missing, graze and 5 degrees of hit, each increasing the damage and in some cases causing critical effects). Basically I guess I followed the natural impulse of eliminating rolls to check the damage... rolls to see if its a flesh wound or if it affects the oponent in a more substancial way... but without eliminating the data. I figured good hit = good damage = nasty side effect. Numbers should be good inspiration for description I believe, but descriving each action is as always up to the player. I cant garantee that some guy in Washington or Hong Kong will play it the way it was invisioned. About crit loccations, I think its a necesary evil. In many games (all styles) you see people get hit by 20 arrows before falling or get slashed with a sword without wearing armor and practically ignore it. I know its the "heroic flavor" but with what Im going for danger should be real for every one. Even the most "I hate to aknowlege my wounds" person would understand have to take into consideration his situation when he hears "you cant feel your arm" or "it went through your chest... every time you try to move the pain pins you back down".

What are your goals for this game?
Fast & easy way to play a fantasy game. Ive read reviews and previews of many games but most seemed too over encumbered, or too light weight. I also want to get some contributions to the website (as in ideas & such posted by any one who enjoys playing it). I mean if I enjoy making the game, odds are some people will enjoy playing it. Also Ive read tons of "I just payed $40 for this book and its unplayable". This is not the only free option on the net, but its not the worse one eighter.

What's tha audience?
Pretty much any one who like's what they see on their first visit. Good combat for the youngsters and good narrative freedom for the hard core "lets create a story" type players. Also I mean to make it a "the players say whats going on, the story teller counters with descriptions and challanges". I nearly died when my g.f. said that she played a D&D game where the GM said every thing and the players just rolled. I cant picture this in my head...

Why are you here looking for criticism?
Because frankly I havent played with a group for a long time & I dont know really that much about what else is out there. If something looks workable, I wouldent mind some experienced players saying it. If something is downright stupid, all the more reason to find out. No point repeating the flaws that Im looking to correct. Also if I can somehow avoid trolling, posting should be a good creative outlet. On rpg.net Ive gotten some great ideas by looking for answers for other peoples problems and well the forge is supposed to be the same + some extra class.

What needs fixing?
According to me, nothing. But the first person who plays will probably pick something up, and so on. Still I think I'll do this in a different way... Instead of the 'HERES MY WORLD, LOOK AT IT" approach, I think it would be more polite if I just go back to the drawing board and post over what come's up during design. I still am looking for a good XP system  or advancement system though... any thing that dosent work by "raising stat's by using them". Well, off to do the dishes (5xp each).

[Mark Johnson]

Im not satisfied with:
-Xp system
-Magic system
-My total inability to create fantasy names (hehe, dont worry about that line though).

re: Experience
A good experience system for a gamist system should have a good system for estimating the difficulty of challenges and a system of firm, fair and consistent guidelines for rewarding overcoming these challenges. This is truly difficult for a game designer.  Even D20/D&D3rd edition, the most playtested RPG in the history of gaming, has had obvious problems with its Challenge Rating system.

A few ideas which may not be relevant:  
 An experience system is not necessarily an advancement system.
 Consider tangible rewards or meta-game rewards (ACE points) in lieu of advancement.  
 Skills are assumed to be honed and developed outside of game time.  
 Surviving combat is its own reward.

re:  Magic System

A madlib system might work well for a building block system.

Adjective descriptors:
firey - add 2 damage (except those with fire resistance) - cost 2
watery - add 1 damage (except aquatic creatures) - cost 1
desolate - add 1 damage to good outsiders - cost 2
lesser - remove 1 success level - cost -1
greater - add 1 success level - cost 2

Noun descriptors:
sphere - mage can manipulate a small magical sphere by thought alone - cost 2
ray - mage shoots ray out of finger with successful range attack - cost 1
healing - for every success target gains 1 life level - cost 1
anihilation - if spell kills target, the target's cannot be resurrected - cost 4
grave - target takes 1 damage unless it succeeds will roll - cost 2
destruction - does 1 damage plus 1 damage to nearby environment - cost 3

Sample spells:
Firey Sphere of Anihilation (cost 9)
Watery Grave - (cost 3)
Greater Healing (cost 3)
Desolate Ray of Destruction (cost 6)

Many games have gone this route succesfully.  

re: Fantasy Names
In your setting info, include sample names for each culture.  If the game's designer has trouble with coming up with plausible names within his setting; imagine the trouble that the player's have.  Even name of geographic features might be good.  You don't have to place them in your setting, but names do have power.

Good luck! (minor format edit)

[Lugaru]

Thank you... about the Xp... I'll try to hammer something out. Its likely that just as a player can use an ACE point to generate a friend or ally... he should be able to use it to generate a teacher or learning situation. A cool backwards way to use it would be "spend story altering points to say why you have the skill... from now on you have it, for better or for worse". It might not even be a bad idea to allow characters to do this in key moments... if their exuce is decent.

About the magic, that is exactly what I did... let me do a quicky on it:

* d6 damage (pretty random spells) cost 1 mana
* +3 costs 1 mana (at least you know what you get)
* Fire: +1 damage to the spell and a critical ignites your oponent (super nasty critical desintegrates... consider it gone)
* Ice: +1 damage and a critical numbs the limb for quite some time (super nasty critical brittles it... consider it gone)
The list goes on for stuff like electricity, 25 feet range, 50 foot range, area attacks, animation spells, reanimation spells, darkness, illusions, conjurations and all those standard things we expect.

Typical spell example:

Spark: it creates an electrified arc between the caster and an oponent who is up to 3 spaces (15 feet) away. A simple to hit roll is required, and if accomplished this spell will do 1 d6 +4 damage. Since it is electrical, it will stun oponents (making them lose one action) on a critical hit and also it ignores metallic armors. The cost is 4 mana.

Basic spells can only cost a total of 4 mana or less. Advanced spells cost one less mana, up to a total of 7. Master spells cost 2 less mana, up to a total of 10. Legendary spells play by their own rules.

So in other words basic spells are cheap, but inefficient. Advanced spells (the meat and potatoes of the game) cost a tiny bit less, but developing and learning time's are increased. And casting a spell you havent studied up about is neighter time nor mana efficient. In theory a spell consists of several pages worth of examples, concepts, equations and advice... so if you "just improvise the spell" you'll end up getting a lott less than you would if you knew every thing about how to use it.

That's all Im saying for now... I just watched Taboo (some gay samurai Drama, without that much Drama or Samurai action... some nicely shot sceens though) and Im all spent. Subtitles can really drain you sometimes.

[Mark Johnson]

Lugaru,

Have you considered offering your setting as a D20 or OGL offering?  You are obviously passionate about the low handling time of your core mechanics.  But there is a pretty large group of players out there who have mastered the D20 system to such an extent that they could play it as fast as your system.  Then again, you seem more excited about your mechanics than your setting.  Am I reading you wrong?

[Lugaru]

Its a sad thing to admit but your totally right. My hobby is the system... same reason I like doing computer rpg's and stuff like that. The setting is improvised really... half an hour worth of thought at most.

Secondly... I really dont know what the d20 system does in comparison to the advanced (2nd) system. Ive flipped through some stuff and read a few articles but its like they keep the core rules pretty hush hush. Still by what I have read it seems to have the same inherent problems as its predecesor. I could try doing d20 house rules, but Im really not passionate or knowlegeble about the product, so that would be pointless. Also it would probably be less work.. and Im in it for the trouble more than for the gory. I probably have at least 12 unpublished games that I simply designed, played for a few months with friends and then lost the notebook. Now Im just trying to be more disciplined, posting my work instead of trashing it, so that it serves others as a source of ideas or as a cheap game to play.

[Mike Holmes]

The inestimable Mr. John Kim has a list of free RPGs.

http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/

Note particularly the section generously labeled "Traditional" and just how many entries there are. Then ignore those entries, and look at the other categories.

Mike

[Mark Johnson]

Its a sad thing to admit but your totally right. My hobby is the system... same reason I like doing computer rpg's and stuff like that. The setting is improvised really... half an hour worth of thought at most. .

If you can create a setting in half an hour, I wonder what you could do if you actaully put real effort into it.  You were able to summon up at least two evocative compelling ideas in that short period of time (the porcelain masked zombies and the whales), I can only imagine what you are capable of if you put your mind to it.

If you were interested in D20, all the rules (save rolling for attributes) are available here: http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html.  The same skills that you are using to create your new system could be used to adapt your more powerful setting ideas to the most popular RPG in the world.

[Lugaru]

Edit: Man, I wish 2 ideas where a setting... Im really undiciplined when it come's to writting in english so I might put my setting off a bit. Hopefully things will come while I work more on the system. Still thanks, thats really nice of you to say. Another thanks for the link.

About d20... I'll look into it. I mean I love systems... and why not do both? If people want to play their characters in my world, my characters in their world or whatever, the more options I give them the better. Already I have a simple "die pool" idea... remember how stat's have a number like 5 being a 2 bonus? 2 dice. 3 succeses (every 6 counting as 2 of 'em) would be a critical and 4 would allow you to choose, just like in the normal version. A weapon skill would add 1 to your bonus, so in a die pool it would add 1 to your dice. Of course I'll do that when Im done with my current system... or if I get bored and need to work on something else.

About standard fantasy... Im out to build a system more than any thing. What does this system do?

Tagna rushes after the orc with her broadsword... depending on how she hits it perhaps she will incapacitate it or even kill it.

Yukio faces her would be Yakuza assassin. She quickly pull's her gun and starts shooting... if she hits her oponent in the right spot there's no chance of retaliation, but to simply wound or graze her oponent will probably mean her own death.

Same deadly system can do both. Ive tried. Now if Tagna finds a Flintlock pistol or if Yukio purchases a preasure forged katana, the system wont crash. And unlike many game's the difference between the fantasy and modern versions of the weapons will be evident. If Gorg roll's to break his chains and Samuel rolls to hack into a medical research data base... the same dice will be used, only diferently. If Stewart drinks scotch and Vlad drinks blood, they should be able to sit and enjoy an evening without the players runing out to purchase the necesary material to support this. I saw there wherent that many horror game's on the list for instance... well in my system an angry guy with a sharpened pencil could potentially kill you just as dead as a shotgun would. Its not as likely (would probably take a few tries) but that dosent mean you shouldent be scared of leaving your pencil near the psycho your interogating. With fear of death and injury well supported, other fobias would simply be a matter of setting.

Hopefully the system will provide for most of my "gritty" game needs. Perhaps a small alteration will enable "heroic" gaming as well... because the more modern you get, realistically enough, the deadlier things become. I dont know how fun a world where "any old chap with a marchine gun" can kill you if he gets the drop on you. Maybe sooner or latter some one else will try my system once its done. In the meantime I rather not think too much about finding my audience... its not about them YET.

[Brian Leybourne]

And I mean making a new story teller type of game is easy... let me invent one right now....

You have 1-5 points per ability that you create and write down. Any thing you want. Abilities are eighter phisical, combat, social or resource oriented. We use a deck of playing cards for this game... to accomplish something you pull as many cards as your stat dictates, the more hearts (for social skills), diamonds (for resource checks), clubs (for phisical tests) or spades (for ass kicking) you get, the more controll you have over the outcome. I want to get a hotel room? I pull a diamond or use one from my hand. I want to shoot a guy? Awesome, I pulled two spades and a club, the two spades should allow me to incapacitate him.

Ironically, that's pretty cool.

Brian.