PDFs: Is there a "too long"?

[Andy Kitkowski]

Hey all, sorry if this sounds like a dead and done topic, but I just recently had a major shift in viewpoints, or at least a huge accomidation made in my viewpoint, regarding PDFs.

For the longest time, I've been watching the "PDF Debate" go down here and on RPGNet... Basically between what I considered (notice the "ed") the "liberals", who can accept games in any format, who were in favor of PDFs, vs the more conservative folks (who I thought, past-tense, as kind of crusty of viewpoint) who seemed to only accept games that were published on paper.  The argment by the conservatives was always, "Because when I print it, it costs me lots of money to print/bind it, and that should be fronted by the designer if they really believed in their product" (others seemed to want to print it out to stick into their bookcase with the rest of their printed collection, thus wanted it to look good).

I couldn't get my head around this. Honestly.  I had, for the past 4-5 years or so now, been very open to PDF-based RPGs and supplements (starting really with Fudge, I think).  I saw no problem with printing them (from an inkjet or whathaveyou, or even better at work). Essentially, I was somewhere between bemused and incredulous that people were trying to print and perfectly bind (like a REAL BOOK) a downloaded PDF at Kinkos or whatever.

I just couldn't understand, because for me, most supplements I have don't reach 64 pages. Very few reach anywhere near 100 pages. If the supplement is around 48 pages or less of dense material, I'd simply print it out, punch it, and stick it in one of my RPG binders. If the game was longer, I'd take out the parts that warrant serious attention (like rules seperate from setting, or a particular part of the background, or character generation, etc) and print those out to read, and read the rest on my screen. So, maybe out of a 64-page download, I'd print out about 20 pages and get the "jist" of the rest onscreen.

Recently, I was given a PDF of a game that was well over 100 pages. 150+ DENSE pages of rules, setting, etc. The game looks interesting, the rules are very well put-together... But at 150 pages of material this dense... Well, the material here, all of it, is what I would normally print out to read later. But at 150+ pages, it's a little too much for even me to easily consider printing out (at work, home or Kinkos). It's like it finally "clicked" to me, what many of those more sensible "RPG conservatives" were arguing this whole time. And note here that, with a games as dense as the one I'm describing, Not Printing it is synonymous with Not Reading/Playing it.

Games like Paladin or octaNe, where the page count doesn't blow over 64 (IIRC), and the rules are tight and the setting loose (or where you have to create a lot of the setting yourself, and thus only need to read the setting for general ideas), I've had no problem with printing out the entire book, or just 12-20 pages for my reference.

Other games, more "traditional" games perhaps (cover, toc, huge rules section, huge background section, index), may be doing something "wrong" (?) when they rely on PDFs for large (150-200+ page) games and supplements.  That's my thesis statement, I guess. :)

So what, then?

Maybe publishers of large indie games who want to go the PDF route would be better off splitting their game into sections... perhaps some modules downloadable (like core rules), and some via Print on Demand or something (like the background).

Would there be sort of a "threshold" for PDFs... like a difference between the "must print for easy reference" and the "background/fluff/not as often referenced material", in page numbers, that might make a PDF purchase more appealing?  Because for me, with the above game, it wouldn't matter if the game was $15, $10, or even $2- It'd have to be Mind-Blowing for me to print out a PDF with such a high amount of "must print/reference" material.  If I were to throw out a number off the top of my head for a good threshold number for "must print" material, I'd say optimally no more than about 36 pages, 48 being kind of a limit, and certainly not any more than 64 pages... at least, not until Tablet PCs become more widely available.

Any thoughts on this idea, or my ideas on threshold?

-Andy

[Jonathan Walton]

I'd have to agree with your assessment.  Even something over 50 pages is a little long for me to print out, let along read on screen (I probably wouldn't read anything over 25 pages on a computer screen, unless it was damn amazing).

I also question the need for more than 50-or-so pages in a basic PDF covering the rules and setting of the game.  I expect to pay $5-10 for a PDF and 25-60 pages would be nice to get in return.  If you give me more, I probably won't use it.  95% of the game material I buy will never make it into one of my games.  I buy it because I like reading flavor text, because I like interesting mechanics and setting elements, or sometimes just because it's in the same book as some other interesting tidbits.

Sure, you could probably get away with charging more for a 150+ page PDF, but who's actually going to take the time to print it out or read it?  I know I just downloaded Ars Magica 4th Edition because they were offering it free online, but it's like 250+ pages.  No way I'm printing it out, and I'll probably just scan it for the famous magic system.

So I guess I'm very much in the liberal camp.  Sure, I like putting a hardback book on my shelf just like everyone else, especially one with nice art or (better yet) outstanding design work.  However, game material is intended for gaming (though many people use it for other things) and I'll take it any way that I can.  Give me stuff I can use and ditch the rest!

Later.
Jonathan

[Matt Machell]

I think the idea of splitting up a larger product is a very worthwhile one.

After all, in actual play I'll probably only want to refer to the rules section, I can pretty much remember all the background I need. If my players need to know the background in detail they can read it on the screen, there's not much need to bring it all to the table.

It's a case of considering how the PDF will be used, and designing it appropriately.

-Matt

[Jack Spencer Jr]

What puzzles me is how not printing = not reading/playing. I mean, you are reading this post, right? Why not just read the PDF on the screen? Why print it out at all?

Now, many argue that they like a printed book. Fine. I would also like a million dollars, you see.

Two million. I would like two million... make it six...

Anyway, you see my point, preference for one form of publishing does not mean the other is unusable as-is or that it should be converted to the other for use. Were I a PDF publisher, I would be scratching my head over this need to print. Burn it to a CD and put that on your shelf, if you like to see it on your shelf.

This is all just opinion, but it's kind of like needing to copy DVD's to VHS tapes so you can watch the movie. Why not just watch the DVD's? Not used to the DVD remote? You'll learn. Promise.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

I tend toward Jonathan's position on this one. Part of it is, perhaps due to my oldness, I dislike reading the screen as if it were a book. Part of it as well is portability (again, possibly an oldness factor).

Best,
Ron

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Best, Ron

I can buy the screen reading. It is rough on the eyes I will probably go blind by the age of 40 thanks to it. Higher definition screens would help I would think.

As for the portability issue, burning a CD makes it quite portable, but then you need to have a device to read it. Then you'll need a notebook or transfer the data to a PDA, that kind of thing so you can read it on the train.

TBH this discussion says less to me about print vs PDA as formats and says more about people who would really rather have one format but keep looking at another format and treating it as that format. That is, is sound like Andy would be happier with only hard copy games, yet he keeps looking at PDFs, for whatever reason, but he prefers to print them out before reading or using them. It seems to me that he would do better to just buy hard copy games and save on ink and paper or learn to appreciate the PDF format on the screen, which if it's done well could have nifty features like hypertext links and such to find that one rule more quickly.

That all said, I would like to note that I am also a printing fool. I have printed out many, many games, including the 600 page behemouth that is FATAL, so I'm pretty much in the same boat, I guess.