Not Evangelion: Pilot roles

[ThreeGee]

Hey Thomas,

Let me take a stab from the mythical standpoint. Society is challenged by the other, which only innocent children can deal with. In the real sense, our children grow up with the other and accept the other's ways, but Eva focuses on the conquering of the other, using force to drive the other away, which is an adult concern. Hence, the more the children fight, the more they become like adults. In a sense, it represents the universal right of passage into adulthood.

Something to think about, anyway.

Later,
Grant

[wyrdlyng]

As someone who was also disappointed in NGE, I developed a PBEM game with a similar theme but much more religious slant. ("Heaven has judged Humanity and found us wanting. Now angels have come down to wipe us out and make way for the next race." It was meant to pose the question: There is a God but he wants you dead, so what do you plan to do?)

Here's some of my notes. Feel free to take anything which you like. :)


The warmachines in my game were called War Golems. They were large humanoid machines lacking a soul. Pilots were those whose souls could properly attune themselves with the nascent souls of the golems. In time the golems' souls could even begin to develop to the point where it could gain self-awareness.

There was a lot more religious material in there with the Golems and Humanity's arsenal being designed by rogue Nephilim that survived the slaughter of their kind by the angels. They've sided with Humanity to strike back at the angels and God. To keep the angels from just nuking the Earth, they captured and bound three angels and more importantly Gabriel's Horn in order to stall the apocalypse. The angels want these back but can't wipe out all like on Earth (only Humanity's to go under the knife).

[Thomas Tamblyn]

Wyrdling - thats exactly the kind of series I want this game to be able to create, thanks for the information on it.

I think I'm settling into a 'fill in the blanks' style.  The Angels and evas will just be Invaders and Guardians in the rules because I need to call them SOMETHING.  With one of the first steps before play being defining the starting elements of the setting, including what the invaders and guardians are - this should be helped by examples and a couple of 'ready-to-run' scenarios.  With the amount of detail that the game .relies on being created during play, there shouldn't be too many details needed at start up - especially given the quick "one form list a, one from listr b" character creation.

(one of the things I liked about Werewolf: The apocalypse - with Tribe/Auspice/reed you could define so much of your character.  i was always disappointed that having done the interesting part i then had to go and manually determine what kind of abilities that resulted in when there was so much information contained there already)

Thanks to everyone thats replied to this thread - its really helped me to work out where I'm going and how to get there.  I think I'm going to sit back and try to get a working version of the game up and running now that I have a solid starting point.

Looking back over this thread, I think that I haven't been able to get across how narrow or wide the scope of the game is so thats something I ned to deal with in the initial document.

By tye way - got Panzer Dragoon Orta (I LOVE japenese pseudo-english titles!) recently for my Xbox and I just couldn't stop thinking that I could run this game with NotEva (still a working title).  Shows I'm going in the right direction, to my mind at least.

Well - you couldn't quite run it perfectly - the combat system doesn't have the right feel for it, it feels good for hulking monster combat but not darting flying dragons.  Perhaps I can come up with a way to do both?  I think that might be asking too much of it though - apart from the setting details I may need a rules mod to run Panzer Dragoon Orta or something similar - Hmm, angsty fighter-pilots.  Perhaps a rules mod would have wider use - perhaps two combat systems, one for hulks and one for flyers?  May be more useful than I thought if I can make the two interact - give different Invaders different caharcter.  Or more detail than I need.  Experimentation is needed.

Ok I'm rambling now and saying little of interest so I'm going to shut up.

[MPOSullivan]

Okay, returning to the board again as i approach a more finished version of my game and i saw this thread.  I've gotta say Thomas, your idea has so much damned potential i couldn't help but comment on it.

one of the things I liked about Werewolf: The apocalypse - with Tribe/Auspice/reed you could define so much of your character.  i was always disappointed that having done the interesting part i then had to go and manually determine what kind of abilities that resulted in when there was so much information contained there already

I agree completely.  I've always wanted to make a game where you used cards with certain character traits on them to build your character.  Something like L5R, where the selection of both your clan and your role didn't only give you your powers but also your stats was kind of cool to me.  Maybe each charcter could recieve stats from their pilot roles and combat experiences.

Also, i've noticed that you have a couple of stats for pilot characters, but only one stat for command characters.  Why not have generic physical and mental stats too for both types of characters too?  In the Eva series that you have used for inspiration the pilot and command characters both got into a bit of opposition in very physical ways outside of the Evas.  If the story that you're trying to develop is something that goes beyond the mech battles, that delves into the backgrounds, relationships, hearts of these characters, having stats that only reflect your quality as a mech pilot might deminish that role in the game to its players.  Maybe a basic Mind/Body/Spirit set and then have the Role Traits as well.  So on your Pilot sheet you've got Mind/Body/Spirit and Synchronization, etc.  

And while on the subject of character roles, i see you've run into a little hurdle with the place of the Command Role character.  A suggestion from me then would be to have the Command character not reveal new information right of the bat, but discover it.  Use the Command character to interface with the organization in a way that the pilots couldn't and have them explore it.  

Perhaps assigning Command Roles in the same way Pilot Roles are assigned could be cool as well.  It could help in adding depth and background to the characters.  Hell, some players might like their Command characters more than their Pilots.  also, in this way, you could have entire sessions revolve around the politics of the organization and the descovery of cool secrets.  there were only thirteen angels in NGE, yet twenty eight episodes.  opening up the game to more character-to-character interaction wouldn't break with the "source material" so to speak.

Orphaned: the leviathans/angels/what have you killed your parents right in front of your eyes.  You may not be young enough to pilot but you will have your revenge.

Scientist: the mysteries of the leviathan must be explained for the greater good of mankind.

Wunderkind: you're a bit too old to pilot, but that doesn't mean you can't help.  You run the computer systems for the organization and command the floor.

Guilt: you feel in some way responsible for the presence of the leviathans on Earth.  Perhaps you can help figure out a way to send them back where they came from.  

Well - you couldn't quite run it perfectly - the combat system doesn't have the right feel for it, it feels good for hulking monster combat but not darting flying dragons.  Perhaps I can come up with a way to do both?  I think that might be asking too much of it though - apart from the setting details I may need a rules mod to run Panzer Dragoon Orta or something similar - Hmm, angsty fighter-pilots.  Perhaps a rules mod would have wider use - perhaps two combat systems, one for hulks and one for flyers?  May be more useful than I thought if I can make the two interact - give different Invaders different caharcter.  Or more detail than I need.  Experimentation is needed.

on the subject of systems, what are you working with?  what's the task resolution like?  i've never been the best at this sort of thing, i've always been better at making character creation fun, but perhaps if we had a basic system outline to work from we could help you develop some solves to those problems of flexibility.

laters

   -michael

[Thomas Tamblyn]

Thanks.  I guess this thread might be around for a little while longer then.

Why only one stat for the player's command caharacter?  Well, simply I can't see any need for more.  I don't think I can make this a game that allows for both proactive staffers and proactive pilots and really I want the focus to be on the pilots.  Lets break this down stat by stat.  i should note that the stats are emphatically NOT generic mental/physical/social.  If they turned out that way it is coincidental - I have to admit i usually create stats for my game by trying to cover all the bases like that, but for this I sat down and thought "What are the characters going to do and where are dice rolls desirable?"

Constitution - Well, physical conflict (athletics etc, probably not all out war!)  between then children outside of the mechs is important for some roles and just plain bound to come up.  In addition consititution indicates how much pain they can take and influences how much of a beating they can take when piloting.
The staffers on the other hand are adults.  They will always beat a child in a physical confrontation (and since the children are subordinates, it shouldn't ever get that far).  Any physical conflict between staffers I see as taking place off screen via nararation.

Synchronisation - Self evident why its there.  Some pilots are better than others, HOW they're better is a stylistic difference.  Staffers don't need anything like this simply because one of the default assumptions of any setting in this game is that only the pilots can pilot.

Conviction - This one's important. Thgis is how sure of their place in the world the child is (they may or may not be right, that remains for play to decide).
In the end, this is a game about the pilots.  They are in flux - the staffers have by and large made their decisions - for better or worse - and are in the process of living with them.

A suggestion from me then would be to have the Command character not reveal new information right of the bat, but discover it. Use the Command character to interface with the organization in a way that the pilots couldn't and have them explore it.

Your suggestion regarding how to use command characters is pretty much how I have them working at the moment - though rather than directly playing the staffer, you have them reveal what happened when most (or least) convenient.
Regards the problem I was having of how to get the players to make life difficult for themselves, rather than statting out the invaders, I'm going to take a leaf out of Inspectre's book and say that you've defeated the invaders when you've overcome a certain amount of hazard.  There's going to be hazard, its better that you introduce it rather than the Gm.

I agree that roles fit characters other than the pilots.  Since this is a "fill-in-the-blanks" game I think its important to have as many transferrable elements as possible.  
Command characters roles will define their areas of authority - Operations director would be able to issue direct commands to the pilots "Flank them!", Tactical officer would keep them informed as to special battlefield conditions "Look out, that buildings abpout to collapse", whilst a special investigator with questionable allegiance would focus on 'discovering' dark secrets of the organisation "You don't understand, this entire planet is the hive!".  Etc.

You make a valid point though that the command character is rather underdetailed at the moment, with just Rank (narrative authority) and Role (Sphere of influence).  I think just choosing a background/mptivation like the ones you gave is a good idea and one that I'll use.
However, with regards a player wanting to play their command character more than the pilot - they're just playing the wrong game for it.  If there's a way to have your cake and eat it here, I'm damned if I can see it.  Sorry - I just don't see a way round this.

Something I'm working on at the moment is how to use a cast of other characters.  The Jealous kid, the Disapproving teacher, the Wise Old Man, the Defector From The Other Side and the Soldier Who Doesn't Trust The Pilots are all roles I've got at the moment - these are there to provide conflict in a social context and are the Gms toys (naturally not all roles of npc will appear in every game, and there may be more than one of each).

There will be special guidelines on how to include NPC pilots - I have some special ideas there but I'm not going to say any more until I've got them all worked out.

Bit of a long post, but as requested, here's the rough combat rules.

ROLLING DICE:
   Roll dice equal to the relevant stat, =/- any modifiers and count how many sixes you get.  If you have no sixes, count 5s.  No 5s?  Then count 4s.  And so on.  Stats normally range from 1-10, but few pilots will have a stat below 3.


GOLIATH COMBAT:
   Goliaths use hand-held weaponry, when you go out on a mission decide what class of weaponry your goliath is carrying.  Alternatively, the tactical officer can decide to issue a particular weapons loadout to the pilots.

   Blade - +1 dice melee attack.  You can throw the weapon for a +0 medium-ranged attack but you lose the weapon until it can be recovered.
   Huge blade - +2 dice melee attack.
   Autocannon - +1 dice Medium ranged attack.  No melee attack.
   Heavy artillery - +2 dice long ranged attack, useless at short range or below, cannot move and attack.

   You can forfeit either your move or attack in order to change weaponry as long as the replacement is to hand.  A goliath may drop its current weapon and default to a +0 hand-to-hand attack for free.

   You gain bonus dice for creative attacks or interesting tactics.

   Combat takes place in turns.  Start with the players, they take their actions in any order they can agree on.  Then enemies get a turn.  Once everyone has had an action, start from the begining again.

   In a turn you can (attack and move one range band) or (sprint and move two range bands).  The range bands are long, medium, short and melee and describe your distance to the enemy.  The Gm (or your staffer) will declare anything of use (cover, weapons, beer) that you can get to by moving.

   To attack, roll your pilot's Synch against the enemy's.  If you equal or beat your opponent's score then you have scored a hit and they take a point of damage.  Once they have taken damage equal to their Constitution, any further damaging hits stun them.  A stunned mech must roll its pilot's Conviction against its current damage to recover.  If you are in hand-to-hand range of a stunned enemy you can savage them rather than simply attacking them. The victim takes d6 damage.  Until a stunned goliath recovers, it can do nothing but take the pain.

   To defend instead of attacking, roll your Synch and add the result to your Synch for purposes of resisting attacks until your next turn comes about.

   If a mech does nothing else in its turn and it isn't stunned, you can roll the pilot's Conviction and recover from that much damage (Pull youself together man!).  You cannot reduce your damage below your Constitution in this way.

   Once a mech has taken damage equal to twice its pilot's constitution it is out of action for the rest of the fight.  If it takes three times as much damage as the pilot's constitution then it is permenantly wrecked and a new mech needs to be found for the pilot.  This means that the pilot's Synch score will go down by 1 permenantly since he can no longer pilot his standard mech.  Four times as much damage kills the pilot.

   A goliath in melee range of its opponent can elect to grapple.  There is no skill involved with this, instead each combatant strives to tear its opponent apart.  From now on  the participants will savage their opponent each turn until one of them is stunned.

(Oh yeah - failing a stress check while piloting is BAD NEWS, but more of that later - this is just bare-bones task-resolution)

At the mo I'm interpreting 'fallen down' as 'being tailed by' for the angsty fighter-pilots mode but with this system the fighters don't seem as fragile as they probably should.