layout design hints, tips, and tricks

[taalyn]

This has probably been mentioned, started, or discussed elsewhere, but I swear for the life of me that I can't find them. Are there any good tutorials on  layout and design on the web? here on the Forge? elsewhere?

Aidan

[Christoffer Lernö]

I think there should be quite a lot. I'm not a layout person, but I believed I knew a few things one should avoid, thus this posting/rant. Others will probably be able to help you to other interesting threads.

[ethan_greer]

Here's a recent one:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=6056&highlight=

[taalyn]

Thanks guys, I actually had found both of those. They are pretty good. I could have sworn I read that someone was going to do or had done a tutorial sort of thingy.

I worked for Kinko's for several years, so I know my way around PageMaker,  basic layout tenets, and such like, but I think game layout has some important differences. For example, is a 'frame' for a game page pretty standard and a good idea? What's the best width for a sidebar? Is putting a page-by-page content clue (like in TRoS) a favorite and heartily recommended? How much art is too much? not enough? Is there a page-to-art ratio to know when is a good time to break up the unrelenting graytext?

I haven't used rules heavy games (like D$D) for ages, so it tends to be learn the system and use the book for a Table, for me. I'll still refer to the book from time to time, but... Of course, I won't be doing that with the Indie games I now proudly own!

Aidan

[J. Backman]

I could have sworn I read that someone was going to do or had done a tutorial sort of thingy.

Actually, I was working on a short e-book on how to do good-looking lay-out, but I dropped the project because of other commitments. I might pick it up again though, seeing that someone might actually want to read it.

[philreed]

Since I posted the short tutorial a few days ago I've been thinking of creating a much larger work that shows a lot of the tricks I use. Probably between 60 and 80 pages.

Is this actually something people would pay for? Probably not many gamers but thinking about it I buy lots of books on graphic design and usually pay $40-$50 for each one.

hell, some of my Emigre magazines are $50.

[Jonathan Walton]

Phil,

I'd probably pay $20-25 for a PDF like that, but more would be out of my price range.

[Jason L Blair]

Well, Phil, you know I'd pay for one.

To answer concerns of the the original poster, though, it seems you're more concerned with the market issues of layout rather than the technical. Frankly, the standard in the game industry is so low (in other words, most games are butt-f'n-ugly) that if you're interested in making a nice-looking book you should look outside the industry for inspiration. As far as handy reference and coordination tags: Utility in a game book is a good thing so go with it, man.

Your last comment concerns me a little though as you seem to equate indie with rules-light (or at least not something that must be referenced during play) and I don't think that's a great assumption to draw or spread. A lot of people seem to make that faulty assumption already--we don't need to propagate that ourselves. But, of course, that's another topic...

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Aidan,

You've seen this article by Clinton, right? Its overall purpose is more general, but it includes some layout utilities and useful points about them.

Biology,
Ron

[taalyn]

Thanks Ron, yes I hadseen it. I scoured the forums for anything I could find, and it looks like I will have to go with Jason's recommendation - find tutorials outside the industry.

Jason - I know that characterizing indie games as rules lite is not a fair assessment. I meant to convey that I tended not to bow to the rules so much, and hence my lack of knowledge about standards and such, particularly in regards to indie games. I mean, I have plenty of mass market games (actually, now that I look over and count, mostly they're indie or cult-status rpgs - TRoS, Theatrix, Jorune, Underworld, with a splash of GURPS, FUDGE, and WoD). I've looked through them all for layout issues, and borders seem to be mandatory, and a large number have sidebars. I guess I want to know what is considered good style, and everything I've seen here (basically, all the links offered above) give me that info. I guess I thought there would be more...

I'm particularly having issues with art - how much. I like art, and because of the unique nature of the Aisling mechanic, color wheels and such like are mandatory. I'm afraid of putting too many. I've got vague idea of balancing the art (so that the page doesn't look like it'll fall over), but not sure whether what I'm doing is good or not.

I think what I need to do is just do what i think is good (with some help from outside sources), and then submit it here for you kind folks to critique. My problem is I want to do it all at once, of course, and that just doesn't happen....

Phil, I'd pay for one (a PDF tutorial of layout design), though I'm a broke grad student, so it'd have to be pretty cheap at the moment...

Aidan

[Jason L Blair]

Aidan,

I think designing the layout as you would like it to be done is exactly what you should do. My advice on follow-up would be to _not_ submit it for critique to people who are gamers (strictly becaue they're gamers) but to people whose sense of aesthetic you trust and/or admire (gamers or not). After all, the average gamer's (hell, the average person's) sense of style is what got us into the ugly-game-book state we're in.

Trust your instincts, man. I beg of you: don't follow the gaming layout norm. ;)

[taalyn]

Thanks, Jason, it helps to have someone just say "ignore the s**t out there - do your own thing!". That's what i'll do, and when I'm done, I'll bug you, Matt Snyder, and a coupla others for input on layout design.

Aidan