Heroquesting -- The Larger Picture

[Tod Olson]

And my minor Heroquest question is:

 My friends all worship Orlanth and are going on a Heroquest I am:

       a. a worshiper of Ernalda (Orlanthi Pantheon)
       b. a worshiper of Yelm (non-Orlanthi Pantheon)
       c. a non-Theistic worshiper

 Can any of these three people go on the Heroquest?  My understandinging is that the first almost certainly can, the second might, and the third is outta luck.  If this true, it would seem to make Heroquesting difficult or impossible for groups with mixed religous beliefs.

I agree on the Ernalda and Yelm worshippers, no problem. It is also possible for the non-Theist to participate.

There are many places on the other side where the places intersect. We had an Animist character enter the Spirit Plane and meet up with the rest of the group  at one of these intersections, if it made sense wrt the myth. I think that character also wound up in the God plane a couple of times with the appropriate "wrong plane" modifers.

One possibility here is that not all characters are involved in all stations of the heroquest.  Maybe the Theists start it all, entering the Hall of Orlanth or something. Meanwhile, the Animists are getting helped to the Spirit Plane by their shaman, and join in in the middle stations where the planes intersect. Then the Animists guide the Theists through the Spirit Plane for the ending stations. (And you get to torture the Theists with alien world modifiers! What could be more fun?)

Anyhow, as long as it makes mythological sense, go to town.

-Tod

[simon_hibbs]

 And my minor Heroquest question is:

 My friends all worship Orlanth and are going on a Heroquest I am:

       a. a worshiper of Ernalda (Orlanthi Pantheon)
       b. a worshiper of Yelm (non-Orlanthi Pantheon)
       c. a non-Theistic worshiper

 Can any of these three people go on the Heroquest?  My understandinging is that the first almost certainly can, the second might, and the third is outta luck.  If this true, it would seem to make Heroquesting difficult or impossible for groups with mixed religous beliefs.

I elieve anyone can accompany a heroquester, but essentialy just as a follower. Alien World penalties would apply though so while a Ernaldan would not get any penalties while accompanying a quest in Orlanth's Hall for example, a worshiper of Yelm would probably suffer something like -10, and an Animist perhaps -20 on all abilities (I'd have to check the rulebook).

One problem with these characters doing this is that the quests might have knock-on consequences if the quest intersects their own religion's myths in any way - even if it's not obvious. The risks of this may have been low at other times in history, ut during the Hero Wars unintended consequences have a much greater tendency to pop up unexpectedly.


Simon Hibbs

[Nick Brooke]

There are many places on the other side where the places intersect. We had an Animist character enter the Spirit Plane and meet up with the rest of the group at one of these intersections, if it made sense wrt the myth. I think that character also wound up in the God plane a couple of times with the appropriate "wrong plane" modifers.

If I understand the latest thinking correctly, the "Hero Plane" (where almost all heroquesting happens) is being redefined for HeroQuest as "the place where all the other sides intersect." This was not the case in Hero Wars (or, if it was meant to be the case, it was hugely unclear), and caused immense brain-aches for this reason.

Usually, worshippers (theist, animist and/or sorcerous) go to their other side to begin a heroquest. They then proceed from the "safe haven" of Orlanth's Hall, Siglat's Node or whatever out onto the wild and wooly Hero Plane, where nobody is alien (or where everybody is equally alien, take your pick), and where all the myths interact on an equal footing.

(I'm sure you can take friends and allies along on such a journey, albeit they may be uncomfortable with your bizarre alien rituals; also, your safe haven may not be safe to them).

Expect greater clarity from HeroQuest, shortly.

[simon_hibbs]

If I understand the latest thinking correctly, the "Hero Plane" (where almost all heroquesting happens) is being redefined for HeroQuest as "the place where all the other sides intersect." This was not the case in Hero Wars (or, if it was meant to be the case, it was hugely unclear), and caused immense brain-aches for this reason.

Usually, worshippers (theist, animist and/or sorcerous) go to their other side to begin a heroquest. They then proceed from the "safe haven" of Orlanth's Hall, Siglat's Node or whatever out onto the wild and wooly Hero Plane, where nobody is alien (or where everybody is equally alien, take your pick), and where all the myths interact on an equal footing.

IMHO this is a much more sensible approach than Hero Wars, and is actualy closer to the way things were described pre-HW.

(I'm sure you can take friends and allies along on such a journey, albeit they may be uncomfortable with your bizarre alien rituals; also, your safe haven may not be safe to them).

Note that if you take anyone sufficiently advanced in another religion, you run a particular risk taking them along. They may up taking on the role of your opposition. For example if you went on a quest to save Yelm from being wounded by a darkness demon, and took along someone who worships a darkness related cult, they may have to take on the role of the assassin. If they fail to attack Yelm they may lose their darkness magic, but if they do attack Yelm you have to try to stop them. Taking along foreigners, or worshipers of foreign gods, is incredibly risky, not to say stupid.


Simon Hibbs

[Tim Ellis]

Hi,

This is especially useful if the "unknown station" is not a "kick-out" station (i.e. must be completed successfully to continue the quest). So you're going to get through it, and what you've really done (by your approach to it) is comment on your own religion in a way that might be significant later in the real world, in a wide variety of ways.

Can you elaborate on that a bit?  If this unknown station pops up and your group is suddenly in uncharted territory, are you really making a comment other than "crap, we need to get back to the myth"?  I suppose it depends on the nature of the unknown station.  

The "Unknown station" might be due to the unexpected appearance of another Heroquestor.  This is something not mentioned in the Myths, so now how do you deal with them.  The repurcussions of fighting them/helping them/ignoring them could affect both the quest you are currently on, and your relationship with their cult in the future.

Or it might be bought about by your actions earlier in the quest, where the actions you take appeared to be "right" but are also "different". The example Greg often uses is the Westfaring as part of the Lightbringers Quest - the Questors need to cross the ocean to the gates of dusk - Harmast did this by calling for aid from the Turtle People who carried him across, but another group of questors might know of, or try a different route - being carried across by Birds, for instance.  Now if the important thing is just getting across the ocean then any method is as good as another, but maybe your choices have a deeper meaning, or knock on consequences elsewhere...

Players also have the option of choosing what outcome they gain for sucessfully completing the quest. So for the Humakt gains the Sword of Death quest the Hero may decide to get a magical Sword for himself, or may chose to pass the benefit onto his community, so all the Clans warriors become very skilled...

Benefits for the community are another interesting scenario.  Particularly, when there are no benefits.  

Another thing Greg was talking about - pre HeroWars this time, when he had decided to revisit the Heroquesting nature of Glorantha, but before Robin Laws was brought in to do the mechanics.  He was thinking of a "generational" game - a bit like Pendragon - so at one point in the campaign you'd run the "Sword of Death" HeroQuest and the PC's get to either keep the Sword (and become super-powerful warriors) or share the benefit with the community (who all beome a bit better warriors) - then 2 or 3 sessions down the line you are now playing a new generation - those who chose to keep the power themselves are now at a disadvantage over those whose decendants are still benefiting from the "community" magic[/i]

[Gordon C. Landis]

[. . .] then 2 or 3 sessions down the line you are now playing a new generation - those who chose to keep the power themselves are now at a disadvantage over those whose decendants are still benefiting from the "community" magic

Unless, of course, those who kept the power managed to use it in such a way as to secure benefits for their future generations far greater than a mere bonus to their warrior skills . . .

It's the ambiguous - or rather, the "only established when the play actually happens" - nature of all this that intrigues me so much.

Gordon

[simon_hibbs]

[. . .] then 2 or 3 sessions down the line you are now playing a new generation - those who chose to keep the power themselves are now at a disadvantage over those whose decendants are still benefiting from the "community" magic

Unless, of course, those who kept the power managed to use it in such a way as to secure benefits for their future generations far greater than a mere bonus to their warrior skills . . .

It's the ambiguous - or rather, the "only established when the play actually happens" - nature of all this that intrigues me so much.

Quite. You might go for the 'one off big bonus' option, but not take it yourself, instead bequeathing it to future geenrations, to be used only in time of dire need.

Another point realted to your comment on how heroquests are only established when the play actualy happens. Greg ran a short excerpt of the Lightbringer's Quest at the Tentacles convention in germany last week. He used no rules, and just ran it as a short dry-run kind of game, by way of example. I played Issaries.

We started after arriving at the Gates of Dusk, and first Greg explained what we know about the heroquest - the various stations of the quest and the roles the lightbringers play. The realy eye-opening thing was that as soon as Greg started the game, we had no idea which station we were at, and the stations were in different orders! It was just like playing a regular game in that respect - things changed, and the beings we encountered made unpredictable choices depending on our actions. Thisd meant it was very hard to know if we were doing the right thing or not, even though we knew the outline of the quest.


Simon Hibbs

[MrWrong]

The realy eye-opening thing was that as soon as Greg started the game, we had no idea which station we were at, and the stations were in different orders! It was just like playing a regular game in that respect - things changed, and the beings we encountered made unpredictable choices depending on our actions. Thisd meant it was very hard to know if we were doing the right thing or not, even though we knew the outline of the quest.

Thanks for sharing this with us Simon.

It waylays my fear that once the Heroes have embarked upon a heroquest, its a pretty cut and dried "enact the myth to get the reward", with upsets being thrown in due to gaps in the heroes research/knowlegde/preparation before hand (as well as general Narrator playfullness).

Instead it seems a pretty fluid affair, with the Heroplane and interaction with the myths there being a much more dynamic affair than I previously had thought.

[Alai]

Another point realted to your comment on how heroquests are only established when the play actualy happens. Greg ran a short excerpt of the Lightbringer's Quest at the Tentacles convention in germany last week. He used no rules, and just ran it as a short dry-run kind of game, by way of example. I played Issaries.

Simon, if you played Issaries, then who was the guy I was playing, that was psychopomping, path-watching, and haggling left and right? ;-)

We started after arriving at the Gates of Dusk, and first Greg explained what we know about the heroquest - the various stations of the quest and the roles the lightbringers play. The realy eye-opening thing was that as soon as Greg started the game, we had no idea which station we were at, and the stations were in different orders! It was just like playing a regular game in that respect - things changed, and the beings we encountered made unpredictable choices depending on our actions. This meant it was very hard to know if we were doing the right thing or not, even though we knew the outline of the quest.

Indeed so.  I'd heard Greg talk about such things in the past, but it was most instructive to actually go do them (and to see how Greg as a 'GM' handled them).  And very interesting to 'play', as a 'game', despite having I'm sure read the synopsis of the quest any number of times, and indeed Greg himself reading the appropriate part out just before we played. There was, for me at least, no sense of being locked into a formulaic ritual, or indeed a "linear adventure". With some hindsight it was reasonably clear how the events mapped onto the myth (with a step-for-a-hint or two from Mr. S, admittedly...), so it was also quite heartening as regards one's confidence in being able to run these as Narrator, too.  (I've in fact already run a couple in my HW game, but a bit of semi-independent re-inforcement is always nice.)

Cheers,
Alex.