Armor vs Dice Pools

[Morfedel]

I was wondering whether everyone thought the tradeoff of wearing armor and losing dice pools was adequate and balanced?

I ask because I have been running some sample combats between three guys with identical stats/attributes; one wears full plate and wields a great sword; one wears chain and uses a shield and one hander; and one uses a bastard sword and leather armor.

I find that the guys with the lower dice pools have a heck of a time getting a blow in - and since they have to successfully defend in order to attack, it makes it difficult to grab the initiative.

furthermore, when they turn around and swing, the guy with the higher dice pool can often grab the init back after a successful parry, and still have adequate dice for an attack, again.

What happened is, most often, the guy with the higher dice pools whittled away at the guys with the plate armor, unless the guy with the dice pool advantage had a bout of bad luck and the plate armor got a lucky blow in, ending it then and there.

I am torn on this. On the one hand, plate armor DOES slow others down, true... but it seems that maybe with these game mechanics its better to have a larger dice pool, except in situations of mass combat or potential ambush....

[Overdrive]

You can choose 'attack' defence if you think the opponents blow will not harm you. Say the unarmored guy attacks at your plate-covered chest with mere 5 dice. Sure, you'll swing later but he doesn't get to defend :) Same thing if you have shield, most of the time you can choose Simultaneous Block/Strike, allocate enough dice to defence and get a free attack. Risky, but effective..

[Jake Norwood]

I think in game terms it works good as is. OTOH, if I did a 2nd edition (or maybe for TFOB) I'd drop CP penalties from armor a lot.

Jake

[Durgil]

Also try to keep in mind that a character wearing full plate doesn't need to use as many dice when he defends himself, thereby saving a larger proportion of his CP for the attack.  In the end, I think that it is a fair trade-off, and that with all things being equal, the guy with the better armour should usually have the advantage.

[Salamander]

I have to agree with the guys on this, when you are wearing armour, your priorities are shifted, not changed, but shifted. You can put more effort into your offense and less into your defence.

If the player knows how to use an armoured character the less well armoured guys are going to be in for an unpleasant time. The character basically gets 6 free successes to his defence. That's a lot of free successes! So you have the guy in plate mail with great helm with his honking huge -5CP, well, he gets 6 free defense successes. He comes out on top by one die. So he just atacks in the defence declaration (sometimes the best defence is a good offense).

If it is a simultaneous attack, the other guy will be in for a world of hurt as you unwind on his person with a large attack. Of course one of my favourites is to line up a counter (its the German way). Another thing to remember, when fighting a guy who is using a shield, go for the legs, grapple, throw, you are in plate! He's not going to get that dagger into you as easily as you will get your dagger into him! Really there was a reason this stuff was made, and wasn't 'cause it looks cool (which it does by the way).

http://www.livesteelarmor.com/index.html

I think in game terms it works good as is. OTOH, if I did a 2nd edition (or maybe for TFOB) I'd drop CP penalties from armor a lot.

Jake

I don't know, Jake. I think that your numbers reflect normal (munition grade) armour & weapons quite well. I think that the better stuff would be more able and of course cost more, as per the book. I have it set up so that fine plate has -2CP and -1 Move penalties and the fine Great Helm has -1 CP and -1 PER penalties. It costs a fortune, but you get what you pay for!

[Morfedel]

Hm.

Can you attack as the defender? I mean... there are maneuvers like Block Open and Strike, Counter, Grapple, etc, but is it allowed for you to say, "Oh to heck with it, I'm gonna attack you back anyway"?

[Brian Leybourne]

Morfedel,

Yup, that's exactly right. I don't have the book in front of me to give you a page reference, but it's in there.

Have a play with the combat sim, the option is in there.

Brian.

[Durgil]

At the beginning of combat, it's easy.  You just drop a red die at the beginning of the combat.  If you are both attacking and you know your opponent is going to swing first, you could just try to take the hit and attack anyway.

[Lance D. Allen]

One caveat to that, at least when I Seneschal... If you drop white, you cannot choose to attack that exchange unless you attempt to buy initiative. Anything beyond that, attack and defense are equal options. I say you can even choose to defend (or do nothing) when you have the initiative, which my Tiberius has done several times in dueling Julianos, rather than finishing him off after a shocking and painful attack.

[Valamir]

Morfedel,

Yup, that's exactly right. I don't have the book in front of me to give you a page reference, but it's in there.

Have a play with the combat sim, the option is in there.

Brian.

That would be top of the second column page 76 and top of the first column page 77*

*In the first printing anyway.  My 2nd printing has been leant out so I can't say for sure if its in precisely the same place.

[Morfedel]

yeah, sure enough, hehe! :)