Sins of Our Forefathers - Charater Advancment help

[Fallen_Icarus]

Hi,

The main rules can be found in the assosiated thread.  I know its long and I apologize for the lengthy setting description.  However its not required reading for this question.

anyway,

The major method of character advancement has to do with an Attribute called Vitality, which is basically your essence, soul or self-image.  Its like any other Attribute in the system and so it has a die size associated with it (d4, d6 ...).  Players may either roll this stat against their current skill rank to buff skills, or spend down in order to buy things like more Traits or to increase a different Att.

The question I have lies with my current method of increasing Vi.  In order to do this the players have to wager it on certain actions.  They can only wager on an action that involves an Att higher then their Vi.  So if Bob goes to push a door open, and his St is a d10 but his Vi is a d8 he may wager it on the roll.  The player then rolls Vi and adds it to their active Att. And then makes the real roll for the action.

This is where it gets tricky.  If the player fails his action on a wagered roll, his Vi goes down one die size.  If the target number for the action was greater then the highest # of the active Att (a 10 on a d10) then the player gains on Vi die size, but if it was smaller, then the player just gets a Power Point (a pool of points that can be spent through the session for bonus dice)

My question is, should I put some limit on how many times a PC can wager vitality?

Also, does this seem like a viable method for character progression?

And, are there other systems that use a similar method?  I know TROS bears some resemblance.


Thanks for your help.
EVH

[Jeffrey Miller]

So if Bob goes to push a door open, and his St is a d10 but his Vi is a d8 he may wager it on the roll.  The player then rolls Vi and adds it to their active Att. And then makes the real roll for the action.

If I read this correctly, what you mean is that you wager Vi, then roll d10+(d8) - yes?  The bit about adding to the active Attribute /then/ rolling the action might be confusing me.

My question is, should I put some limit on how many times a PC can wager vitality?

The first thing I thought was, "Ok, I'll just go wager Vi on a ton of meaningless rolls, power-up, then go kick butt with my d-kuhgillion Vi score"  What if you limited the when of the application, like you can only wager Vi if the target number (assuming you use TN) is higher than the die type of the attribute you'll be adding Vi to, and then only penalize Vi on some kind of critical failure?

-j-

[Fallen_Icarus]

If I read this correctly, what you mean is that you wager Vi, then roll d10+(d8) - yes? The bit about adding to the active Attribute /then/ rolling the action might be confusing me.

Correct.  I didn't want them rolled together because of the possibility of getting the die mixed up with the Att die.

The first thing I thought was, "Ok, I'll just go wager Vi on a ton of meaningless rolls, power-up, then go kick butt with my d-kuhgillion Vi score"

I tried to limit that already by saying that you can only wager on rolls that use an Att higher then your Vi.  Trust me, a d20 Att is rare.

Is this limitation not enough?

EVH

[Jeffrey Miller]

I tried to limit that already by saying that you can only wager on rolls that use an Att higher then your Vi.  Trust me, a d20 Att is rare.

Seems like an issue of how much fluidity you want to see in the Vitality stat.  Its also used for damage tracking, yes? (sorry, only skimmed the other thread. I probably need to read it to properly comment)  If so, as a player, I can tell you that I'd bump it up in safe, non-important contests, in order to be buff enough for whatever comes my way.

As for character advancement, is this the only stat that can be increased, or the only "cookie" you're offering?  It might be too little an offering, especially factoring in the effective cap at d12 (again, I'm hampered by not reading in depth your other thread.. mae culpa eh wot?)

-j-

[Fallen_Icarus]

I would hope for Vi to move at least once a session, up or down.  It doesn't track damage but you can wager your Vi on heath (Vigor) rolls.  I can see what your saying about players pansying around with trivial stuff so that they can get buff.  I guess a GM could just say that certain things cant be wagered on or keep the action coming so they dont get a chance to do that, but thats way too railroady for me.

[Fallen_Icarus]

As for character advancement, is this the only stat that can be increased, or the only "cookie" you're offering? It might be too little an offering, especially factoring in the effective cap at d12

Not sure what you mean by the d12 cap.  You're probably referancing the fact that I said you can only wager on Att that are higher than Vi.  I should have said equal to or higher.  Sorry for the mistake.

Basicly, all stats have a max value of 20 inherently, even skills.

There are other cookies, but Vi increases are by far the most appealing.  Power Points (also gained thru wagering) are another example, as are the class specific benefits characters get by leveling.  This last cookie of level bennies hasn't been touched on yet so there's no reference to it in the rules to date, but I'm going to start up another brainstorm thread on that soon.

I've run through a session already and both my players were wagering like crazy.  Still, only one of them raised Vi by 1 die size throughout the whole evening.  They did, however, max out on Power Points.

[dragongrace]

Just as a suggestion if Vi challenges are that important to Character leveling, (i.e. potentially damaging to game balance), then maybe make Vi challenges only deliverable by the GM.

What I mean is the GM decides when players should be given the opportunity to try for a Vi challenge.  In the case of the door, you could announce, "this can be a Vi Challenge".  The reason for doing this is that because in your outline of game direction for the session you know that more difficult things are coming up and the chance to raise Vi for a player could help the group along.  If they succeed, then good.  If they fail then it's challenging.

Also you can hide Vi challenges.  The door for example again.  A player decides they are going to bash in the door and roll their Str.  You secretly roll their Vi and if they succeed, pass them a note saying what happened on your end or make an announcement at an appropriate time.  Failure: "You have failed to bash in the door and you feel weaker as a result of the effort."  Success: "You bash down the door and your adreniline rush and ego are boosted."

JOE--

[Emmett]

I had a "Gamelet" that had a simmiler idea, The players had a number of "energy" die that they could add on to any roll they wanted. They could add one or as many as they wanted but once they used them they were gone until the character could rest.

I like the vitality die, my suggestion would be that any time you use it, it counts as a test. Except that if you use it on an attribute with a lower die level than your vitality die, you go down a die level. That way you can boost your Vitality die in little tests but it will fluctuate back and fourth.

But even as stated, There is not enough growth there for most players. If you don't always use vitality any growth is moot. If you do, players will simply find the best way of keeping the die most effective and leave it there (I would). Players don't like the idea that all their hard won growth last game could be lost in a single roll this game.

[Mike Holmes]

I'd go with what Joe said. But there's a simple way to determine when to make Vitality rolls. They should only be allowed when the test involves some impact to the character's ethical code. As the central concept of the game (as I understand it), this would completely reinforce that idea.

So if Bob, who believes in "the sanctity of life" as his ethical code, is tuning a computer, he get's no Vi bonus. But when he has to fight someone to death in the slave pits of Monorius Glaka II, he definitely gets it.

I'd also advocate that the player interperet what the change means. If their Vi goes up after killing the guy in the pits, maybe it goes from "sanctitiy of life" to "sanctity of life, own first" or somesuch. Or maybe he wins but refuses to kill his opponent, and it becomes "sancity of life even at the risk of losing one's own". Basically the mechanic becomes a way to enforce closer examination of the game's central concept.

Mike

[Fallen_Icarus]

They should only be allowed when the test involves some impact to the character's ethical code.

Good call.  Though I havn't yet mentioned it much, there is a mechanic called Aura that players put points into in order to lvl.  I'm thinking of useing this as a basis for what Vi can be used on since it is Soof's equivilent of an alignment system.

[ross_winn]

Hi,

Also, does this seem like a viable method for character progression?

EVH

I do have one question. Do you see the players being encouraged to take this risk, or discouraged. If you want to encourage players to take risks the punishments for failure must be perceived as being less than the rewards. If they are not many (I am tempted to say most) of the players will have NO motivation to take risks.

I would make the effort to play up the positives, and maybe make the negatives less absolute.

[Fallen_Icarus]

Well, the downside of "bouncing", or losing a Vi wager when your Vi is only a d4, is significant.  And I think that it should be something that the players are in constant fear of.  SooF is a game about retaining your soul or essence, that which makes a person alive, in the face of adversity, depression and apathy.

However, the rewards of increasing your Vi are vital to progressing as a character.  Vi determines how well you will improve in your skills, how quickly you can learn new skills, and provides a way for PCs to buff their other Attributes.  Its not the only perk that the players get, though, and as soon as I get the PDF of Ver.2 up you'll see what I mean.  Because of some playtesting and comments on these threads its a much cleaner system.