Narrative rpgs make good card games

[GB Steve]

In this thread, I propose that MLwM would make a cracking card game.

Now thinking about this a bit more, it seems apparent that much the same could be said about many other narrative type games.

I could easily see a card game of Sorcerer where players try to rack up damage on their opponents whilst satisfying their demons' needs and trying to stay human.

Is this because these kinds of games have a central mechanic that has some kind of downside payoff for using the PCs abilities? Also, that these games have a strong recognisable theme, a premise even, that gives more direction to the play than in your more common RPG.

I suppose Vampire has this kind of mechanic with humanity too, but it was never really very well exploited in the game and all too often ignored. It never featured in the card game IIRC, which was a rather drab affair anyway.

Perhaps the interesting magic system in Unknown Armies has a solid enough mechanic to transfer to card games, I wonder.

Of course MLwM cards would provide nice support to the roleplaying game.

Steve

[Mike Holmes]

Ron has said more than once that the sort of motivations that produce Narrativism and Gamism have some similarities in that, once you realize which you're doing, the mechanics can often switch back and forth very easily. Just a change in what's rewarded. Card games are distinctly and unmistakably Gamist (when not attempting other things).

Given all this, it should be no surprise that your observation is true. It should be a simple affair to make many of them into card games. OTOH, kudos for being the first to make such a nifty observation.

And you're totally right about the balancing mechanics as being particularly suitable. Obviously games like InSpectres, which rely on player narration mechanics would be less suitable.

Mike

[Valamir]

I think what you're seeing is the twin effects of focused game play (what's it about) and tight specific mechanics.  These features are also required for an effective card game.  Therefor, any RPG that already exhibits these features has the basic ingredients for being built as a card game.

I wouldn't say it has anything to do with Narrativist games save for a rough correlation that many Narrativist games also happen to exhibit focused game play and tight specific mechanics.  Dungeoneer is a snappy little card game based on traditional Dungeon Crawls.  In order to work Tom boiled it down to very focused game play (exploring a specific dungeon with specific monsters) and tight specific mechanics for the key elements of monsters, treasure, and quests.

Course you've got me thinking now.  How about a game of Charnal Gods...with population cards like Nuclear War, where you have to kill enough population to keep the demons out of the world while you amass status as a legendary figure, only to lose that status when the world runs out of people and needs to be "rebooted".  Heh.

[Lance D. Allen]

When we say "card game" I'm assuming we're talking more Magic: the Gathering than Dragon Storm, right?

Games like InSpectres could easily, I think, be converted to a CCG roleplaying game, like Dragon Storm. Others, like for instance TRoS's combat system, could be converted to a gamist, non-roleplaying CCG, along the lines of M:tG.

I think that either track could be explored profitably, and I'd be interested in seeing it happen.

[iago]

To me it sounds like he's saying "narrative games make good card games", not "narrativist games make good card games".  MLwM is probably narrativist (I'm not a vocab jockey), but it is definitely narrative, in the sense that it has a built in storyline that the game is about fulfilling.  Other "pluggable theme" games (e.g., Paladin, Sorceror) certainly show this notion of at least some of the storyline being built in, and since the mechanics are all arranged around that, they certainly give clear and easy rise to like-themed card games.  I'd hesitate to invoke any GNS terminology about it all, at any rate.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

GB Steve nails another one in one.

I've always wanted someone else to dream up a perfect blend of Once Upon a Time and Wyvern, for a wholly Narrativist card game of Sorcerer. Possible? I don't know. That's why the "someone else" part.

The real issue in any such design would be the role of Endgame, which is more-or-less factored into most card-game design more consistently than in RPGs. Studying Once Upon a Time carefully would be a good idea, as I've found that the game becomes vastly Gamist or vastly Narrativist depending on how groups treat the "fuzzy step" between emptying your hand of cards and laying down your Ending card.

Best,
Ron

[Daniel Solis]

Perhaps the interesting magic system in Unknown Armies has a solid enough mechanic to transfer to card games, I wonder.

There was some discussion of a UA card game on the UA mailing list a few months ago. The basic concept was to have highly graphical, atmospheric cards with little to no text and maybe a number or two here and there, with no rhyme or reason. You would have to make up your own game and decipher what the card elements actually meant in through the course of play. It was more of a structured intellectual exercise than a game, but cool nonetheless.

[contracycle]

I pretty much agree with everything above.  After seeing the thread on poker dice and TROS I wondered about a system in which you had cards in your hand representing steps, and you could lay down a sequence of cards to describe a manounver, like a long lunge or something.  I wonder how fluid that mechanic would be for RPG purposes, a sort of card based version of en garde notation.

One of the potential properties of cards is having different types of decks, so possibly decks could be dedicated to functions like the end game.  Even character generation could be a particular mode of play with particular cards, conceivably.  Of course it presents several immediate problems too concerning predicting probabilities and so forth, but I would be interested to see more expreimentation with card forms.

[simon_hibbs]

Is this because these kinds of games have a central mechanic that has some kind of downside payoff for using the PCs abilities? Also, that these games have a strong recognisable theme, a premise even, that gives more direction to the play than in your more common RPG.

I think it's just because the game centres on an interesting conflict.

Many RPG scenarios could be turned into board games or card games. This is also true of LARPs (Freeforms, not the rubber swords stuff). Every LARP I've been in could easily be converted into a card game or board game. In fact one pretty much has - Chris Gidlow produces a card game of the Council of Nicea called Credo, while the Gloranthan LARP 'How the West Was One' is based on the same concept.

You could make a card game version of the Hero Wars game I've been running. Players would take the part of different factions in the city vying for power, but the appeal would be limited to say the least. The trick is to find a premise that is going to be familiar enough and with a conflict rich enough in factions and available options to make the game interesting and re-playable. MLWM seems like an ideal subject for all sorts of games including RPGs, card games and LARPs (Freeforms).


Simon Hibbs

[RaconteurX]

Speaking of Gloranthan LARPs and card games, the core mechanic of the original run of Shannon Appelcline and Eric Rowe's "The Broken Council" LARP was based around a collectible card game. The final characteristics of the god Osentalka (aka Nysalor), as developed during play, were the product of competitive play of tradable cards to influence the god's runic associations (elements, powers, etc.). It failed to work quite as planned, alas, due in no small part to the "CCG illiteracy" of many of the principal participants in the game. 'Tis a pity, as it was a very clever system (and quite fresh, given that the CCG craze had only just begun).

[simon_hibbs]

It failed to work quite as planned, alas, due in no small part to the "CCG illiteracy" of many of the principal participants in the game. 'Tis a pity, as it was a very clever system (and quite fresh, given that the CCG craze had only just begun).

Having talked to some of the partyicipants in the game, the main problem seemed to be the sheer complexity of it, and the ammount of time it took to play it. Sandy compained of being buried under a mass of power cards, with no time to read them all through and figure out which ones to play at which times. Plus the in-game auction had over a hundred items in it, with no indication before hand when the items you'd be interested in would come along. Plus the fact that major characters ended up spending the whole afternoon playing some sub-game that made them inaccessible to characters that needed to interact with them to further their goals.

Freeforms absolutely must have simple, easily understood mechanics, and limited complexity otherwise they're doomed.

Simon Hibbs

[RaconteurX]

The main problem seemed to be the sheer complexity of it... Freeforms absolutely must have simple, easily understood mechanics, and limited complexity otherwise they're doomed.

You shan't hear any arguments from me on that account, Simon. Those with whom I talked issued the same complaints but did, upon reflection, consider the system ingenious. That no one had foreknowledge of what the LARP's chief bit of cleverness would be I think worked against it in a big way, and it certainly needed to be implemented in a less complicated fashion. The revised version of "The Broken Council" never ran; it was slated for GloranthaCon Chicago, which sadly fell under the shroud of a blizzard the likes of which had not been seen in this century. A single Californian managed to penetrate Valind's barrier, and only after twelve hours in transit.